Transcript: How to Build Remote Company Culture

Transcribed by

Mitch Simon 0:10
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere where CEOs, leaders and experts at building teams, companies, organizations, and amazing cultures

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 0:22
share how to lead from anywhere in the world. I’m your co host on the East Coast, Jim Bianco Mathis,

Mitch Simon 0:28
and I’m your co host on the West Coast, Mitch Simon. And we invite you to join us team anywhere.

Wow. Today we bring you Brett putter, a remote culture expert and author of a recently published book on your culture, how to define, embed and manage your company culture. Here’s a five star review on Amazon of this new book, quote, considering the dramatic changes in the way we work that’s been brought about by the pandemic. This is probably the most important business book you will read this year. End quote. In today’s podcast, Brett unleashes the secrets that he uncovered by interviewing 50 CEOs, the best global companies that have learned how to strengthen their culture, their vision, their values, and their mission in the new virtual and hybrid world of work. Hello, and welcome to another episode of team anywhere. I’m Mitch Simon, your co host on the West Coast. And we’ve got Ginny Mathis, your co host on the east coast. And today we are excited to have Brett Potter Brett is the CEO of culture, Genie culture, leadership software and services platform. He’s a great author in 2018. He published his first book, culture decks decoded and his second book on your culture, how to define embed and manage your company culture. Great. So welcome, Brett. How are you?

Brett Putter 2:06
Mitch? I’m very good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. But if to both of you on the show, really looking forward to it and excited to to dig into this virtual world that we’re living in?

Mitch Simon 2:17
Yeah, yeah. We’re totally excited to have you on as well. I was just saying before the call, when we started team anywhere, we really didn’t expect to have so many people from all over the world. What’s really cool is so Brett is from South Africa. He used to live in England, and now he’s in Portugal. So and he’s in total lockdown, which is really kind of interesting, because in California, we’re actually kind of coming out of it. And Brett’s locked down in Portugal, but I guess there could be worse places to be locked down in.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 2:46
Yeah, I would say so.

Mitch Simon 2:49
So would like to know, first question is like, what have you learned about yourself, right over the last 12 months.

Brett Putter 2:57
I’ve learned, I’m hoping that I’ve learned to be a better father and a more supportive husband. I’ve got a one year old and a three year old. And I think I’ve been well, I’ve definitely been more engaged. And with my wife, who is just frankly a saint, because I do what she does. I just tried to be more and more supportive. And we just literally 15 minutes ago, my son, the one year old decided that he didn’t want to go to the park after my daughter and my wife had decided to go to the park. And so there’s been meltdown. And I just don’t know how she does it. So I’ve got to climbing up a glass of wine for after this call after this podcast, so that she and I can just hopefully find 30 seconds to relax, connect and say hi, because she really is quite on the edge today.

Mitch Simon 3:58
That’s great. Yeah. So she does it because she’s a saint. It’s obvious.

Brett Putter 4:01
Yeah, she’s great. She does it. But yeah, I’ve it’s really been quite an introspective period for me because I you know, I’m quite an outgoing person. I’m at networking all the time. I’m, you know, meeting people, meeting people. And so having this time at home has been very introspective and valuable. So yeah, I’ve learned and I’m learning.

Mitch Simon 4:27
Great. So, you know, one of the reasons why we were really excited to connect you on our podcast is it says that you’ve spoken to 50 executives of office based hybrid and remote companies. And we’re really, really interested in in how did you find those 50 executives. It’s so that you could actually learn more about this whole new space.

Brett Putter 4:55
So I was this, there’s actually quite a shocking statistic. In this I I’m very well networked in the UK and European tech scene. So I reached out to my network and I said, I’m dying to interview people who have built a strong culture, who can you interview introduced me to? And I was introduced to your argument, let’s say, let’s say fita. JACK, Jack’s got a great culture, great team. And I go to jack and I talk to jack and you know, how’s it going better? And then, you know, tell me about your culture, your values, and mission and vision, yes. And then as soon as we started doing a little bit deeper into the onion of how they’re embedding it, how they’re integrating it, what the leadership team of doing around it, that’s when this conversation started to, to sort of flake off a little bit. And what I found is I had to speak to over 500 companies to get to be able to interview just over 50 CEOs that had done a really good job of embedding their culture, on a leadership, a functional and a process level into the organization. And so that that really was the first thing that realization for me, wow, there are 90 90% of businesses have not done a good job of defining their culture.

Mitch Simon 6:13
So how did you how did you know? Like, how did you know we did it was a pretty quick that you figured out that this was a company that really lived their culture? Like, what were some of the markers that set really check the boxes there?

Brett Putter 6:29
Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. So I’ve structured my questions around the sort of the top layer of the onion is, you know, what type of what type of a leader are you? And then tell me about your values, how you define them. Tell me about your mission and vision, if you have both, or one or the other? how you define them? And let’s talk about that a little bit for a little bit. And then then I’d asked how do you how do you recruit against your against the the fit with your values? And most people didn’t, they spoke about culture fit. But if I asked him, I asked him, What is what exactly? Please describe your culture accurately to me, they couldn’t. So actually, they weren’t hiring against culture fit, because culture fit really is all about gut instinct and intuition, which is not scalable, and it’s fundamentally biased. And then we go down to okay to how do your leadership team? Do you have a framework for your leadership team to think about the decisions they make based on the culture? And the answer was no. Have you embedded into the processes? And the answer was no. So that’s when the conversation stopped in most cases. So as soon as we got to the leadership team, it started to get a little bit wobbly. And then as we got deeper and deeper and deeper into the onion, it got really wobbly. And it I had, I had sort of in the research I’ve done and in, in the companies that I looked at, I realized that the companies that do this really well treated like a function. So you’ve got to have it embedded into the organization in a way that you can, that you can really pull the levers when you need.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 8:11
Can you Brett, this is wonderful, and to hear where the conversation broke, broke down. Now let’s look at the ones where it didn’t break down. What What were they able to share where you said, all right now I’m hitting paydirt.

Brett Putter 8:30
So so the payload came from, there’s no longer the CEO, he’s, you run the random business, I think for about 10 years. But there’s a guy named Nicholas design. And Nicholas founded algolia, which is a unicorn, search engine technology business for enterprise customers. And Nicholas and I hadn’t had an hour conversation, and then had another hour and a half conversation. And we could have had another hour and a half. Wow. But I actually actually what was beautiful about the companies and leaders that had really done a lot of thinking about this, is their willingness to pay it forward. And give was immense. This happened with a guy named Mark organ who’s the CEO of influitive. Mark gave me an hour and a half, and then another another hour and a half. And he said, if you want more, you just let me know. And I just felt rude actually, eventually taking up the CEOs time, because if you give me that time, I will take it all. I’m just a sponge, you know, I just want to learn. Yeah, that is the first thing was just the pay it forward. That it was it was going into the amount of detail that they would go into about how they structured initiatives around their values, and how they, you know, they Mark mark, for example, in the second second business, one of his co founders and he had a falling out very early on about the values so mark, bought the co founder out and then Had a reevaluation of all the values with the small team they had. And now whenever they lose a VP level or higher individual, they read, they reevaluate the values against that person in that behavior. So you can see how they how he learned, first of all, and then integrated that into the way the company works.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 10:19
excellent example. So yeah, you have a couple of more bread. So for example, we had this initiative. And here’s how we made sure we built the structure around our culture and values

Brett Putter 10:34
Sure.. So there’s the what was also very striking for me about the CEOs who had done this well, who’d embedded their culture well, was how humble and honest and open to talking about their failures, they get mistakes. And so there’s a guy named Martin Rooney, who is the CEO of a company called Gideon in the in the Netherlands. And, and get one of the values is transparency. And he was asked after just it was literally a casual conversation with one of his one of his team asked him, said, Martin, you know, you You’re the management team, have a meeting on Mondays, what do you actually, what do you talk about? What are you doing that management team meeting?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 11:25
Yeah. And

Brett Putter 11:26
it wasn’t, it really wasn’t a loaded question. But Martin looked at and thought, Oh, my God, if we’re being transparent, and they don’t know, in the rest of the company, what we’re doing and saying in the management team, that’s just behaving in exactly the opposite way. And this happens all the time in company, the leadership say one thing, and then they behave in a different way. Right? They don’t live their values. So Martin said, That’s such a good question. Can I ask you to come in and sit on the next six months of management meetings, the only requirement is that you write up a summary of the decisions we take, and you share that with the entire company. Fabulous. And he did that every six months, every six months, there will be a new person who would come in, and listen and learn and and would be asked for your comments or thoughts, if necessary. And in my book, on your culture, there are literally hundreds of these examples. Because I took all of the examples from the interviews, and built them into the framework. I can go, I can go on and on and on. There’s one of the CEOs, lady named lithia. Navarro from skimlinks. Lithium was always very family oriented, and actually just had this neck around company culture. So when they had enough money, ultimately, to create a really nice office, she put the kitchen in the center of the office and put a toaster in the kitchen. Because if you work with you walk, if you come downstairs, or you walk into the kitchen at home, and you smell toast, it feels homely, it feels family, like you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Right. She wanted that experience for her office. Just the things that people think about. So yeah, tons of examples of, of companies doing great stuff.

Mitch Simon 13:18
Love. I’d love for us to shift a little bit into what did you see in the area of virtual and hybrid companies in embedding the culture because that again, this is again, one of our biggest questions that Jenny and I had when we started this podcast is how do you create culture in a virtual environment? How do you make it different for your employees to work for your company versus another company when in fact, they are? For the most part working from your house?

Brett Putter 13:52
Yeah. So that’s a great question. And I so how I came to get my head around this remote working virtual world is I 18 months ago, I started building some software that replicates my process. And I did this process in person. And I was actually approached by two remote companies. And I did some work with with one of them. And I realized that wasn’t optimal, because obviously they’re out there my in person. capabilities were not great, where people are not in the same room, and we weren’t all using zoom at the time. So I built some software to replicate my process, which is what I use now. And the about 13 months ago now I decided I would study remote work companies because I was building software for them. And I looked at Git lab, GitHub, ruffer, automatic xAPI, top Dell, etc, etc, etc. And I found that the first thing to realize is that the company, the people, the companies that are that were built in an office based environment Could be lazy about their culture, because the office did it for them. mode leaders couldn’t. And remote leaders had to be deliberate about culture from day one, because there was no office giving them as Moses, which is, which is what companies relied on the casual conversations that would bump into moments, the sitting and listening into a conversation at lunchtime or going for a coffee, being in the visibility and availability. Remote companies just don’t have that. So, if you if you look at what remote companies do, they, first of all, are very deliberate about their values, their mission and their vision. And they over communicate them there, because people need to hear this more in a remote environment, because they not bumping into you and listening to you in your, you know, in, they’re not seeing you as a leader who has, you know, you you’re thinking about the vision and mission and values on a regular basis. And you’re probably mentioning it and talking about it in the office. Whereas now use your zoom it’s one to one not not what not one to many is often. So the first element was really I realized that, you know, David darmanin, the CEO of hot jar, he, he over communicates, and over communicated all the time. And he found different ways to say the same thing about culture or about the values or about something important in the organization. So he may say it to everybody in the weekly all hands, but he would write about it in an email to a group of people, he may then say it again to another group of people in a slightly different way, just so that the repetition lens, because what’s happening in this environment is we’re not engaged in the same way. There’s the one year old screaming, I’m thinking about that the you know, the bell doorbell just rang. I’m wondering about that, oh, there’s a Skype or a slack message. I’m wondering, what did you say you’re my CEO? Are you and I’m talking to you? And you know, I’m not listening? Okay. Let me try to be fabulous

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 17:17

Brett Putter 17:18
Yeah, let me try and reconnect and whatever, whatever she said, has gone over my head, or through my head. So. So that that that was the first thing. The second thing that I realized is they remote companies over index on in nine areas. They have nine areas where they best practice on. And it starts with culture where they are deliberate about culture, and they really, really hammered down. The second area that they focus on is communication. So they, they focus on asynchronous communication. We designed as human beings for synchronicity, but actually synchronicity is hard work. And it means we can’t do work, I can’t do work when I’m talking to you. Although this is part of my work, I can’t write a document or I can’t actually, you know, respond to an email. So, so this requires presence and availability, whereas asynchronous communication requires, I will get back to it when I can, or when I think I need to. And so they design their businesses around asynchronous communication, and then build communication architectures around that. So that people need needs to communicate in synchrony in synchronously less. Then they focus on process. I’ve, every single car I’ve spoken to, in the last three months, I’ve asked exactly the same question, what percentage of your processes are defined and written down versus in people’s heads? And apart from companies that deal in the regulatory environment, the answer ranges between 20 and 40% is defined and written down. 60 to 80% of processes are not.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 19:10

Brett Putter 19:11
Now, this seems to be okay. But actually, because it seems to be working, but actually what people don’t realize is it’s not working because if a process isn’t documented, and I have to work out how to work with you and your groceries, which means I have to call you to find out, which means we have to spend an hour on a zoom call, which means you can’t do an hour of work. And remote work companies require five times three to five times the process. Development, then a co located environment. If you just think about holding a meeting in an office I could kneel across, said Bob and Jackie, are you available at four o’clock? 430 Okay, we’ll meet that we can’t do that anymore. You No, I can’t see that they’re in the office, I can’t see that they’re working, and I can’t go and talk to them and say, Show me your diary quickly, I’ve got to, I’ve got to connect with them, I’ve got to set up the meeting, I’ve got to find the time and the best remote work companies have defined the process. In other words, there is pre work that needs to be done. So there’s a working document. And there are companies that insist that if you do not respond to the working document, you do not come to the meeting, then there’s an agenda, there’s an agenda, which also defines each person and what their responsibility is at the meeting. So you don’t have eight people appear appearing for a meeting where only four are needed, then there is the actual meeting, but you often find that the pre work, a lot of the meeting gets done anyway, the meeting is much shorter. And then there are the notes, there are the follow ups there, etc. But those that is documented in a lot of remote work companies, because this is the way we work around here. And this is what we expect from you when you work. So those are just three, you know, really good examples of what remote work companies are doing to build a culture and I the way I look at culture is culture is the way we do things around here. And that covers habits, behaviors, norms, principles, communication styles, both good and bad. And so understanding that your culture is this overarching umbrella across the entire organization and touches every single part of your organization is a vital element of company culture. I

Mitch Simon 21:40
really, what I’m what have you seen in terms of how, you know, is a git lab, GitHub, all these companies? How are they differentiating the experience to the employee? So how are they differentiating? The what it feels like to be a member of that company?

Brett Putter 22:00
Have you have you looked at the Git lab? company manual?

Mitch Simon 22:04
It’s very large. Yes, it’s how many 100? How many? 1000s of pages? Is it?

Brett Putter 22:10
8000 pages of badly? I don’t know, if you printed it off, it’s 8000 pages,

Mitch Simon 22:14
8000 pages. Now, Brett, I haven’t read it all of you know, but I’ve read a lot of it.

Brett Putter 22:22
That, that it’s a work of art. Because actually, if imagine, imagine you’re joining a remote virtual company or a remote company. Now, again, what do you want to know, you want to know how the company works, you want to know what the culture is, you want to know who your teammates are, you want to know where they came from, you want to know where they are in the world, you want to know about them, you actually, you know, when when we’re on boarded, we’re in this high state of anxiety, we don’t know anybody we cut, we haven’t been able to prove if we’re really good yet. We don’t know if we’re going to have psychological safety, which to show that we can demonstrate we can be who you are. And if you go and read that get lab document, it just brings you on in you know, you just you can go and see this, my team is that these are the values this is the culture, this is how we do things around here. And so that’s a very good example of, of this, I’m seeing what I’m seeing with other companies is they they build micro communities. So you’ve got a whole we’ve got an entire community, but ultimately, micro communities make up your culture so so a company like zevia have over 100, hashtag fun, slack channels, from dog walkers, to parents to red wine lovers to everything in between. And those micro communities help people find and connect with like minded individuals, which helps them extend their community element. And but what invariably happens is the micro communities overlap so they form one big community. And then if we go back to a company like Git lab, get lab have probably 20 different community building initiatives from DJ creative DJ music lists to virtual tours of your home to quizzes to fancy dress events to making life real and building a network of connection with with with them with their people. The thing though, is because these companies work, mainly asynchronously. Having a video call is not a chore. It’s not a burden are they and people are not burnt out because they working asynchronously. They’re not burnt out from zoom. So they’re happy to jump on a call and I’m happy to jump on a call and speak with speak with a colleague or a video call, because they haven’t seen any, you know, they’ve only had one, maybe two to today. And the third one doesn’t make that much of a difference. So they design the way they work to make it possible to work effectively in these organizations.

Mitch Simon 25:23
Help. So how does one think about how to maximize a synchronous work? What have you found has been the case?

Brett Putter 25:33
So first of all, you need to understand what you’re currently doing. And most people most companies are, are hugely synchronous. And what that means is that even though we’re now in this completely different environment, companies are still using email the way they did the small, they’re doing zoom calls, the way they were doing zoom calls, they’re not using synchronous, they’re using a lot of synchronous communication, which requires presence and availability, and they’re not thinking about how to transition. So companies that are transitioning or doing a decent job of transitioning are using tools like Trello, or Asana or forums and Google Docs and Dropbox paper to move away from this camp, can this be done in a way that doesn’t require a meeting? Can we have a conversation that that means that meetings are not required? And so that really is, is the the crux of the matter is how do we move from doing face to face calls to sending an email with the right amount of context? So that somebody can respond to that email in due course? Or how do we use something like Trello, to track a project that resulting us not needing to have this meeting? There there, there are lots of different ways that that companies need to rethink this. The most important thing is actually to, to be very firm about so if you’re going to create a for example, as the example I gave around meetings, if you’re going to create a new way of doing meetings, do not allow people to shortcut that. They rarely have to, they rarely they because as soon as somebody gets it takes a shortcut and gets away with it, and does a synchronous call instead of working out how to do a meeting properly, then fall back on on bad behaviors.

Mitch Simon 27:51
Great, I’d love to ask you now about leadership teams. Do leadership teams need to be on site at all together? Or have you found leadership teams that have been fantastic, actually never being together at all.

Brett Putter 28:12
So Leadership teams must not be together. And I’ll explain, I’ll explain why. What happens when leadership teams are together all the time, is that’s where the power happens. That’s where decisions are made. And so the people who can be in the office end up in the office with the leadership teams, and the people who can’t or don’t want to be in the office end up remote. And the decision making and the action happens in the office, which results in the people who are working remotely are virtually feeling like second class citizens. Because they not included in the conversation, they experiencing work and the culture in different ways. And so my recommendation is if you’re a leader who wants to be wants to be in an office, and spend some time in a co working space, don’t spend time in your office with all the other leaders because people will gravitate around you. And it’s it’s kind of a cane now, because people want these jobs and want to retain their jobs. But once we’ve we’ve moved out of COVID. And we’re in a hybrid environment. If your people feel like if the remote workers, you’re like air in a second class citizen status, they will, they will hit the road because they don’t need to be. And actually one of the assets of the future is going to be able to talk about how well defined and how well working your hybrid culture is. Because that’s what people are going to be looking for are Am I gonna be able to work in your environment effectively because I want to be remote. And I don’t want to have to come into the office once a week or twice a week, whatever it is.

Mitch Simon 29:59
So What does the What do you see hybrid than looking like in terms of, if I, if I go on what you just said is that leaders should not be in the office? What What is the hybrid world look like? Or how what examples have you seen that have worked.

Brett Putter 30:15
So I’m seeing, I’m seeing tons of examples. So I’m on the extreme end, I’m seeing bigger companies tell their employees, like Goldman, I think said, you know, you’re all coming back into the office. And I guess, they probably they’re okay to lose 25% of their staff who don’t want to do that all those people can’t afford to not have their jobs. But I know, I know, partners, husband and wife team, they’ve moved to Portugal, they’re not going back to London. So if Corbin if Goldman insists they will just resign and they don’t need to work. So that’s, that’s what I’m seeing that’s on one extreme. And then on the other extreme is everybody going remote. And in the middle, I’m seeing this multi dimensional environment where one of my clients, the sales team, the videos, the business development representatives, will be in the office four days a week, because they want to the account execs two days a week, because they want to the professional services team will come in once a month, because they want to the engineering team of 40 remote, and that marketing team are coming in twice a week. Okay, on different days, right. And so so so you really have no control over but that’s, that’s actually that’s absolutely fine. Because they’re going to take their office and turn it into an environment where you can, if you want to be there five days a week and work five days a week, that’s fine. If you want to, if you want to use it for client meetings, that’s fine. If you want to come in for team meetings at fine, they’re going to completely change your office and the leadership team have agreed that they will that they will come in, in a staggered approach. Some weeks, they won’t be in other weeks, they’ll be in for two or three days a week. And they will they’re not going to they’re not going to telegraph it, they will just be in as and when. But they are deliberately moving towards developing hybrid work capabilities as well.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 32:05
We have heard also bread Have you seen it? That? Hey, we will get together four times a year? Maybe we’ll do it by region? Maybe we’ll you know, whatever makes sense. Um, and here’s what those occasions will look like, and here’s where they will be. yet they’re very deliberate. And to take care of any of those needs of all being together. But they’re rethinking them told, you know, that’s the exception. It’s not the norm. No, I

Brett Putter 32:47
think I think that is well, it’s that is the exception for when it with virtual companies company like hotjar, pre COVID, they made twice a year anyway. And they gave I think it was $2,000 a year, but they gave each employee $2,000 a year to travel to go and work with a team somewhere else in the world. So a team of people who go to Barcelona and go work there. And then another team would go to Helsinki and work there.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 33:13

Brett Putter 33:14
So so so they they made sure that people connected as and when they could. But doing doing a quarterly get together makes a lot of sense. And then doing it around culture, team building, getting to know new people, new joiners, and that sort of thing is really critical. I feel very sorry for the younger younger people joining these companies now because they really relied on osmosis. How else how else do you? How else do you learn? Because now, you know, now you’ve got to somehow make this work. So you’re using those times. And actually one of the reasons why my client wants the BDR team want to be together is because sales requires that energy sales requires that gf but also the sales team of young not a single person apart from the VP of sales is over 28. So they need the why they need the energy. So yeah, there are different structures coming out. But there’s no I’m not seeing a single one, you know, fits all, it’s really very, very, very

Mitch Simon 34:19
Yeah I was looking for one of my clients right now is, is you know, it would be great an ideal bride if there were a actually a list of questions, you know, you would answer you go through a list of questions and answering these questions you would come out with what makes the most sense for your team, for instance? Is everybody brand new on the team? You know, then that would be an indicator that would say we probably need to be together more, right? Or is everyone let’s say do they get all their work done by themselves and there’s really no not a lot of interaction. And those would be, let’s say, engineers or attorneys that would maybe not need to come in as much so that that’s kind of one The things that I’m working on as well.

Brett Putter 35:01
yeah, we’ve we did a survey, basically where we asked a bunch of questions around. When would you like to come into the office? How often what regularity. And actually it was very, it was fascinating the way people, the leadership team actually, were really surprised because people don’t want the office. They don’t need the office the way the way they needed it. And they were like, quite shocked by it. But we did it to demonstrate that virtual working was the next step. And in the thing about doing virtual working correctly is because you’re always going to have a percentage of your people remote, you’re either going to to turn them into second class citizens, or you’re going to make sure they can work effectively.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 35:51
Exactly. Right.

Mitch Simon 35:53
So is there any any one question that we should have asked that we haven’t asked yet?

Brett Putter 36:00
I would say the one question that you could have asked was what keeps you awake at night?

Mitch Simon 36:07
Brent, I’ve got a question for you. What keeps you awake at night?

Brett Putter 36:14
That is a really good question.

Mitch Simon 36:16
I can’t say

Brett Putter 36:19
Mitch, so what keeps you awake at night is the leaders I call them the ostriches, the ostrich, the Australians. They’ve got their heads in the sand, and they are hoping preying on bet on both bended ostrich knees. To do that, we go back to them being able to lead their business the way they did, pre COVID. And I’m afraid to say that that is not going to happen. If they if these leaders do not move and adapt to hybrid work, or to fully remote in, you know, fully fully virtual, they’re going to be in full, rather large surprise. And it’s, it’s going to combine with what I call the popping of the false productivity bubble. So we were in a moment of false productivity now, because people are working 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, because they are not doing they’re not doing what they were doing. They’re not drinking partying on the tube on the bus, in cars getting to work, they getting out of bed, walking seven meters, if they have an office, working in their office, having lunch, working in their office, working some more having done or working, working, and then get a bit angry, as soon as people can get back out and have a good time. And go and see their friends and go away on weekends and go and get a hangover. And and and you know, a group hangover rather than a soul hangover, which is soul destroying, I just think this productivity bubble is going to go pop. And at the same time people are going to start looking around going where is a better place for me to not be a second class citizen.

Mitch Simon 38:02
That’s a great question. And I’m sorry that they keeps you up at night, Brett. Alright, so to close this up. Wow. You have just shared so many great things to be thinking about are working on. Fantastic. So tell us I know we can find you in Portugal. But tell us how can we find you? How can we get your books? What do we need to know to know more about what Brett is thinking?

Brett Putter 38:27
So Brett is is is findable my website, which is culture I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Twitter. I’m on clubhouse, which is this newfangled social network thing that I’m trying to get my head around. I’m, if any of your audience would like to reach out directly to me, they can reach me at Brett at culture I’m a student of culture. And I love to talk to people about what they doing and how they’re doing it. And my books are available on Amazon. If you go to my website, culture dicks decoded, the first book is available for free download PDF, and I’ll send you the link to that if you want to share that. Share that in the show notes.

Mitch Simon 39:13
Yes, I’d love to have that link for our guests. And wow, this has been fantastic.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 39:20
Yeah, I can’t wait to go over it again.

Mitch Simon 39:22
Yeah, I can’t go over it and check on everything. Brett, thank you so much, have a great time in Portugal, and great time living with a saint. And I really look forward to maybe revisiting this again next time. So thank you, Jenny. Thank you, Brett. And thank you for our listeners. If you’ve really enjoyed this episode, please pass it along. Share it with your friends, and we’ll see you next time on our next episode of team anywhere.

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