Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Mitch Simon 0:10
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere where CEOs, leaders and experts at building teams, companies, organizations and amazing cultures
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 0:22
share how to lead from anywhere in the world. I’m your co host on the East Coast, Jim Bianco Mathis,
Mitch Simon 0:28
and I’m your co host on the West Coast, Mitch Simon. And we invite you to join us team anywhere.
In today’s episode, we interview Gwen Stirling Wilkie, author of from physical place to virtual space, how to design and host transformative spaces online released just a few weeks ago, Gwent offers some keen insights in how to work together in the virtual or hybrid world. She emphasizes that our team meetings will need to be more purposeful, build stronger connections and be open to new ways to collaborate, and co create. What I love about this episode is that Gwen offers many ready to use suggestions on how you as a leader or a team member can team anywhere.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 1:21
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere. I am Jenny Bianco Mathis on the east coast. And I’m here with my co host Mitch Simon on the west coast. And today we are very excited to have Gwen Sterling Wilkie with us. Hello, Gwen.
Unknown Speaker 1:39
Hi, Jenny. And on. Hi, Rachel, how are you doing? Oh,
Mitch Simon 1:43
hello, hello, Graham, great to Great to meet you.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 1:46
When you come to us with a lot of experience. been involved with organizational development for many years over there in the UK and elsewhere. You’re one of those educated combination academic and practitioners that we love to, to have. So I want to begin with a book you wrote? And tell us a little bit about it.
Unknown Speaker 2:15
Okay, the point, okay, so a year ago, as for the rest of us, you know, our world really turned upside down. And my od organization development practice, went through a real transformation very, very quickly. So I almost overnight moved from working directly face to face with my clients, I was at the start of a very large transformation project, and that everything has to be switched. Now I knew a little bit about online platforms, I think I’d attended a couple of zoom based meetings, and somebody had put me in and out of a breakout room, all this stuff. Seems like everyday stuff. But 12 months ago, it was still a really big thing. And so I had to get my head around how was I going to do this piece of consulting work, which was to get five separate businesses to collaborate, they have a history of collaboration, they had become part of a large group. And they needed to, I guess, reimagine leadership for their collective businesses. You know, what’s the kind of leadership that we need now and into the future? And how do we create one view of leadership? so people understand the expectation. Now, I got a whole plan of how I was going to do that in a series of workshops across five different locations. And suddenly, it was like, Can you do it online? And I was like, Yeah, I think so. And it was okay, well, let’s, let’s have a go. I mean, what a courageous chief exec to start with to go, I would say, you know, let’s see what we can do in this environment. So, you know, fast forward a few weeks, and I was working as part of a consulting team. And they said to me, you know, you seem to get the hang of this. And can you help us so I wrote a really short, it’s probably 10 PowerPoint slides. And so this is how we facilitate this is what I’m learning about facilitating online. And I shared that with that consulting team. And I shared it out with my wider network of od colleagues. And it was picked up by by a guy called jervis. Bush, who was based up in Vancouver in Canada, and him and another od educator, run the Bushmaster shack Institute of dialogic od. And they said, Would you turn this into a book? And I went, I’m not an author. I’ve never written a book before running a big consulting project. And but you know, I’d love to know something I thought I would be saying, but but why not? So that’s where the book came from. Excellent.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 4:59
Excellent. Did you have some leaders dragging their feet? And if so, how did you bring them along,
Unknown Speaker 5:05
they were a little bit unsure about what was going to happen, they were a little bit unsure about what it was going to be like. But what was amazing, and there were, there were two or three very skeptical people in there. But what was amazing by the end of an hour and a half favor light, this stuff works, doesn’t it? You know, this is we can have conversations. And actually, this is a better structure for us, because we’re not interrupting each other people, you know, newer members of the team commented that they felt their voice was being heard, they felt able to contribute in a way that they might have struggled face to face, just because of some of the patterns of behavior that that team had had kind of fallen into, you know, the shift to, to working online creates new patterns and new habits and new behaviors. So they became really strong advocates for it in the end, which was amazing. And you know, they they are, they are much more open and willing to be doing stuff online now as as everybody else has adjusted as well.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 6:11
Well, a lot of people are but but then we still have a few stragglers. So you got them involved? And talking about it? Yes. And then they saw how it could definitely work. Yes. Move into some of those techniques. I love that something you talked about the notion of reframing participation. Yeah. And containers. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 6:33
And I think, you know, I think, yes, I work as a consultant. But a lot of the things that are in this book are applicable to any leader or anybody who needs to bring groups of people together. And I think there’s a distinction between. and this, for me is about reframing participation. When we used to physically get together, we might have had a team meeting, which was a whole day, we might have had something which was just half a day. And in that there was time to introduce a bit about the context, there might have been some presentations about performance figures that we might have had a discussion about things. And so the day was structured and worked in a very, very different way. When we work virtually, there’s two or three things that happen. The first one is our attention spans are much, much shorter, you know, we know how exhausting it is to connect, looking at a camera and seeing people on the screen, we’ve got more used to it. But it does something different to our brain. And so we can’t stay really concentrating and active for a long period of time. So this whole thing about reframing participation is saying, How do I make the most of those two hours when I’ve got people together so that they can be as active as possible, I can get the best from them, you know? And then what is it that we move into a different space, which is beforehand, which what we now we know, we call it a synchronous working and synchronous working? So what is it that can happen beforehand? What can I send them to read? What video little short videos Can I can I make and they don’t have to be professionally done? They can just be on your mobile phone, you know, have a look at these papers, read through them. I want you to think about this question before we get together. So a lot of the pre thinking at an individual level is already done. So when you come together, you’re then doing the collective sense. And the moving to action. You know, this is what we know has happened. So let me interpret that right now. Now, what are we going to do about Oh, wow.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 8:41
And I find, and please speak to this, that pre work? Is something a lot of leaders don’t do? It’s like, they’ll have an assistant put the stuff together, send out the agenda. All right. Am I on? Okay, let’s start. And who knows? Yeah. Who has read what? So that talk about a new habit?
Unknown Speaker 9:05
Yes, yes. And I think one of the things that I’ve noticed in in in leaders that I still see leaders doing this is they’re bringing their old routines and habits into this new world. And, and it’s it’s really a time and an opportunity you can’t replicate face to face. And I think that’s initially what people are trying to do. It’s about what is it that we can create together. That is a blank sheet of paper for how we run things virtually, whether it’s a monthly team meeting, or whether it’s a space where I need to bring different stakeholders together. I need to bring different partnering organizations together to explore something where it isn’t me as the leader being on transmit. It’s me as the leader bringing these people together who’ve got really different perspectives and I want to hear their perspective because I don’t have the right answer, because our world is too complex now. But I know that if I bring these best brains together, together, we can generate new insights might be combining people’s perspectives generate some really breakthrough thinking. And that’s what I want to do as a leader is bring people together in a different way.
Mitch Simon 10:19
Yes, Glenn, I love that. I wanted to know, what rituals are you finding out are actually bringing people together in a new way? I mean, first of all, I know what you’re what you’re talking about is, in the old way, I would never like, I would never think Can I bring one into a meeting? Because I can’t bring one into the meeting. She’s in the UK, and I’m in San Diego. Now it was now I have to kind of rethink that will actually I couldn’t bring it into a meeting because it’s she’s right there. I’m just wondering what rituals and habits, particularly in the area of have great meetings, have you found have really been helping leaders and their teams? That is something that we would not have considered before? Before the zoom world?
Unknown Speaker 11:07
Yeah, I mean, I think the one you mentioned straightaway geographical, you know, you can, you can certainly have, you can get, we can often get a 10 or 15 minute slot in a very senior leaders diary. And we can just bring them in for a thought piece. Or they can record something that we can share beforehand. So we can kind of bring different voices and inputs in which can really enrich our conversation. So that’s one kind of new routine and new habit. I think the other thing is, is more of a mindset, a mindset about, about letting go have of the being in charge of the letting go of having the right answer. And just embracing a different perspective about participation, and about collaboration and about co creation. So I think that’s the second, perhaps new routine, a new habit. And the other one, I think is, is this notion, I kind of frame it as connection before content. I think one of the one of the one of the things that people are worried about is we’ve only got a short period of time. So we really need to get into it, we need to tick the tick all the tasks off the list. And so for me, the third, and probably the most important one is understanding that we need to connect as human beings first. And so making time for connection. So I always say connection before content, relationship before task. It’s interesting when
Mitch Simon 12:46
I was I was in a virtual conference, and the person putting it on that was his moniker was connection before content. Yeah. I said, Well, no, actually, I think connection is content.
Unknown Speaker 12:57
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 13:00
well, that’s the new mindset. Yeah, it’s got to, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 13:05
it’s got part, it’s, it’s now, so intrinsically linked in, that we know, we need to connect as human beings, you know, we’re missing this is one thing we are missing in this virtual world is, is our sense of connection to each other as human beings, you know, we missed touch, we miss human physical contact, as well as those moments that we would have, as we were, you know, going and getting a cup of coffee together, you know, you have to be much more thoughtful about how you can create those, which is that sort of social kind of space, before we move into the kind of the meat of what we’re here to do. It’s being very conscious about creating the spaces for, for social connection.
Mitch Simon 13:53
I was wondering if as, as companies go back, it looks like the United States where, you know, we’re getting promises that we’re going to all be vaccinated by July 4. How will How will a company or a CEO or a team leader look at the different meetings that he or she will have knowing that some people will be in the office, some people will not be in the office, you know, sometimes all the times, how would they look at constructing their, let’s say, their, their yearly path of get togethers so that they’re gonna have the most effectiveness and the most connection for the company?
Unknown Speaker 14:37
And these are the sorts of things that I’m talking to my clients about at the moment is, is how do we reimagine the future of our workplace? You know, because not only is it you know, different working styles, not only is it how much time am I going to physically spend at home and come into the office, it’s going to be you know, how does that affect our organization structure lectures and cultures and an on our organization flexibility. So if you think, you know, if you think at a strategic level, there are generally a pattern of touch points throughout the year. So, what is it? What is it now? If we’re going to come together physically? What’s the real purpose behind that? What is it that that that can only be done physically? Or we can get the biggest? The biggest impact on our is it? Is it about engaging people? Is it about just reconnecting? You know, I will be, you know, some of the stuff I’m doing with my clients now has encouraged them to think about how do we start to bring groups of people together to reconnect, because we’ve connected in a, in an unusual way for the last 12 months. So I would see this pattern of, there may be fewer touch points where people physically come together, but there will be a lot more thoughtfulness about the virtual coming together. So what are the big set pieces? You know, we might have them there’s different radiology, we might have town hall meetings, which is where we would bring as much as big of the population of the organization together as we can, when is it safe to do that? You know, is it going to be this year? Is it going to be next year? You know, and how do we do that? I might, my advice, and my thinking at the moment for organizations is, is to try and avoid, where we have half a dozen people physically in a room together, and then four or five people who come in via zoom, because that creates such an imbalance, it’s really hard when you’re watching and looking in, and there’s a group of people who are physically there. I think it works for some topics. But if you’re wanting people to come together and really generate something together, then I would say either all virtually, or all physically. So. So there’s some really, I think there’s some real thoughtfulness to go in to think about how you how you schedule and pattern and plan whether we’re physically together, or whether we are working virtually.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 17:19
I have found a lot of leaders. And here’s where your book actually comes in quite well. Um, well give me a checklist.
Unknown Speaker 17:31
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 17:32
that’s gonna force me to think of, alright, what do I want to complete in this container? Okay, and what’s the pre and the post for that? Yep. And then this meeting has come together. So what’s the checklist for that? And this meeting has hybrid. And they go, we know, we can’t live by these checklists. Yeah. They hopefully will help us create the new habits.
Unknown Speaker 17:58
Unknown Speaker 18:00
Unknown Speaker 18:02
So I think that I think they’re are being really clear of the purpose. You know, I think for any, for any gathering, you know, if somebody sends you a meeting invitation, do you automatically accept it? Or do you stop and you go, okay, where does this fit in my priorities? Where does it fit in the organization’s priorities? What is it that’s needed from me? What What is my worries as people, I always suggest to people to ask, what is it you want from me? good at that. Because it’s so easy to just accept, accept, accept, accept, and you kind of go from what I’m turning up. But, you know, do you need me for anything really? Or is this just information? Can I not find out about it in another way? So purpose is absolutely, you know, critical about that. And if you’re doing something online, I would always say shorter and more frequent. So, you know, 60 minutes might be something appropriate for a weekly or monthly meeting, you know, even 10 or 15 minutes. And then how do we stay connected in between that time? So what are the things that can carry on and be and being done? You know, I know people who, who kind of constantly have a zoom window open, if they’re doing a lot of work with one or two other people. And it’s there, they’re just sort of they’re on their screen all day. And you know, they might get on and do and do bits of the work that they’re doing together. And then they might kind of go, right, well, actually, can we just have a chat about this? And so they’re kind of instantly online with each other.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 19:39
And it goes back to the leader. Who many times are surprised by the question? So what is your purpose in this meeting?
Unknown Speaker 19:52
Yeah, and it’s a habit. It’s the routine. We always have a monthly team meeting. Well, okay. doesn’t need to be all day and only always going to spend half of it looking backwards. How much of it? Are we going to be looking forwards? When is our when is our time when we just do some blue sky thinking when we look at what’s going on in the market when we talk about what’s happening with our competitors, when we examine different perspectives, when do we do that? And let’s bracket that space as a container.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 20:23
Oh, I like that. Yeah, the bracketing container.
Unknown Speaker 20:26
I think it’s about being very intentional. You know, and I think, you know, commit to coming back to your point about about bringing people physically together now is, yes, there’s still a cost associated with it. But there’s also the, you know, the the anxiety that people have about their own health and well being, is it still safe? Is it safe enough for me to get onto that plane and fly somewhere and getting a taxi and get and go to a hotel, and then be in a room with a whole load of other people who, you know, I may not have seen or had any contact with? how safe is that for me at the moment. And that’s going to be a real, genuine anxiety in the coming weeks and months that people are holding?
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 21:06
On? So let’s look at a little bit about the technology. I mean, you had to look at it in terms of doing your work, and now they need to learn. Yeah, alright. So they got Okay, there’s zoom. And, and I can put people maybe in some groups now, however, we’re looking at, let’s say we want it to be a thought in a brainstorming. What? Do I just let everyone talk? Now we look at some tools, perhaps what have you found, our help is helpful for leaders.
Unknown Speaker 21:40
Um, I think I think the first thing is to recognize where you are, and I talked about this in the book, you know, some people are real kind of, like reluctant, I’ll use the technology because I have to, you know, some people are kind of in this, you know, I’m learning about it, I’m adapting, and I’m kind of quite excited about it. And some people are very firmly in that this is so integrated into what I do. And it’s kind of like part of my everyday way of working, I think the first thing is for leaders to recognize where you are on those three, and that’s okay, wherever you are, is okay. Because then, then you’re not going to over face yourself by trying to set up something with technology that you don’t feel comfortable using. Because that really comes across, you know, and I’m all for, you know, we’re learning together, and we’re making mistakes together. And what we don’t want as a leader is to be so terrified about what we’re doing, that we can’t contribute in the way that we want to contribute. And that we’ve, we’ve kind of gone to the extreme of technology, and everybody who’s attending the meeting, is so worried about pressing the wrong button, or can’t access their their brilliance that we actually want them to contribute with. So it’s, it’s what technology is appropriate for the situation. So, you know, some of these capturing, capturing visual capturing platforms are really, really great, really easy, you know, jam board is the place, I would always send somebody first because if really simple to use, anybody can, you know can use jam board, or we have a little a little, a little jamming session together at the beginning. So we all have a bit of a go. And it’s you know, we’re not kind of just sharing bits of information, it can be part of the connection exercise, before we move into. So people are comfortable, when we want to be capturing their ideas and I thinking and they’re building on each other, then I would say the next stage up from that is something like mural, or Miro, which is a bit more sophisticated. And you can add other things in, and can be this living journey of developing a team’s piece of project teams piece of work. And they’ve got this great visual story, which makes it really easy to share with other parts of the of the business who may need to get involved. Because, as we know, picture, you know, paints 1000 words, and it’s hard to get what’s going on from a visual image than it is from lots of reading lots of words.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 24:15
Yeah, that is the advantage of those you can have it captured. Yes. Oh, who said that? Well, let me show you.
Unknown Speaker 24:23
Yeah. You know, that’s kind of fun to do. And, you know, other tools like using house chat being used? How do we use breakout groups? You know, when I was initially working with with this group of five companies last year, we used some really, really simple techniques. So it wasn’t about the sophistication of technology, it was about what technical tools are appropriate for the conversations we’re having. And that don’t freak people out too much as well as you know, as we’re learning, so that’s why I’m kind of running Really, really encourage people to gauge where they are. And to gauge where the rest of the people they’re working with are. Everybody’s super high tech, brilliant, go for it, bring it all on, and, you know, use what you’ve got.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 25:14
Totally. What have you what what advice. Consequently, a given the several themes that you’ve shared with us, would you give a leader you’re having now your world has changed, you, maybe you’re just bringing in folks three or four times a year. And you’re doing a lot of hybrid kinds of teams, and you’re trying to build a culture where both those way out in the world, and those in front of you feel the same about being part of your organization, here are the things you should concentrate on later.
Unknown Speaker 26:00
So the first one I would say is, I’m going to go back to connection and relationships, because without paying time and attention to those, you know, leadership is inherently relational, you know, it’s about me, it’s about others. And it’s about the situation within which we, which when we operate, in which we do business, whatever the businesses of our organization, so it’s inherently relational. And whether people are physically in the same office as me, or wherever they are located on the other side of the world with me, as a leader, I have a responsibility to connect with those people to listen to them, to make them feel valued, to make them feel appreciated, to make them feel part of the team. So that that for me is is a is a timeless, a timeless piece of leadership. Now how I go about doing that? I’ve known I’ve got many, many ways to do it. I’ve got more ways to do it than I had before.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 26:59
And I have to do it. And I
Unknown Speaker 27:01
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 27:02
Oh, my God, that’s going to take all my time.
Unknown Speaker 27:05
Yeah. But that’s part of being a leader. You know, that’s part of your leadership responsibility. Because, you know, people join an organization because they believe in, in the purpose of that organization, the values of the culture, they find a place where they think they can bring the best of themselves, but people leave leaders, people leave poor leaders. You know, it’s as simple as that. So there’s a responsibility that comes with leadership.
Mitch Simon 27:32
Let me ask you a question about the communication because our podcast we had a couple weeks back, I think it was I think it was Brett, was that the right? That’s a dog, as the leader, the leader needs to communicate more than he or she did before given this, given this virtual and hybrid world. What are your suggestions, Gwen, on how a leader can’t start to communicate more? And? And what is that leader communicating about as he’s building his relationships, or her relationships based on the values and the culture of the organization? What have you found has worked for you?
Unknown Speaker 28:15
Yeah, I think, I think it’s a multiple, a multiple approach to communication. I think, for me, as a leader, so I might my leadership space now is leading consulting teams, you know, with people who I collaborate with, some who I work with regularly, some I work with occasionally. So one of the first things that we talked about is, is how are we going to stay in touch with each other? So as a leader, you know, finding out from people what works for you, and what works for me. So we have some agreements in place, you know, so is it okay for us to do WhatsApp use WhatsApp, as a as a means of communication? You know, do we operate as an organization off off, you know, office 365. And I’m using all of the ways of being able to communicate and set up discrete groups in that, you know, what written communication do I do I want to do and what are the expectations that we set up with each other around around reading something? Before we get together? You mentioned this early on totally. Right. Yeah. But But do we? What are what are our collective agreements that I as a leader, will, will, will perhaps ask of you, and you as my team members will ask of me. So I think there’s something about about once we’ve got those agreements, then then the channels will come. You know, do we want a weekly team call? Do we want a call every Monday morning at nine o’clock? So we talk about we have a half hour, what’s going on? What support Do you need, who’s really really busy, who’s got a bit of slack, you know, and that’s our setup for the week. There. We just do you know, maybe a daily WhatsApp or we send out emails to each other. So So what’s the rhythm? that’s right for you? I don’t think there’s one. There isn’t kind of like one approach that suits everybody, you know, my advice to leaders is to is to ask is to have the conversation. Because they’ll be, there’ll be things that you want that you like, that send you the signals that people are doing, what it is that you’ve agreed you’re going to do. And if if some of the signals are missing, then then you know, your radar might just be alerted. So there might be a checking in process. And that’s kind of formally and informally. So it’s it’s the relational piece and the task productivity piece as well.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 30:46
Totally. And a lot of leaders in the past have not paid attention to that. Yeah, they have relied on others to take care of that process. Yeah. Now it has to come together. So as you said, the checkpoints, and you’re alerted. Oh, they didn’t read it. So I need to go back up, folks, I need to put something on the table. We have an agreement, number five. I mean, we’re going back to basic facilitation, but the leader now has to take some of that on.
Unknown Speaker 31:27
Absolutely, absolutely. It is part of a leaders role. And also, it’s part of a collective responsibility of a team. So So yes, it’s the leaders responsibility. And it’s the team’s responsibility. And so how do you, you know, one of the things that I will often talk about leading to leadership teams, is how do you share the responsibility? For those, whether it’s a team charter, whether it’s team ground rules, whatever it is, you’ve pulled it, that you say, this is our, these are our terms of engagement, as a team? And who, who’s going to own holding the responsibility and who’s going to own for this period of time, you know, calling us out, when we’re not behaving in a way that we said we would behave? You know, and those are hard. Those are harder conversations to have, you know, and of course, sometimes we sometimes human nature says, I’ll just ignore it, because it you know, it’s just a little blip, and it’ll be fine next time, right? I think sometimes the medium of working remotely, gives us even an even better excuse not to raise some of these topics that we feel uncomfortable about, about having, you know, conversations where we need to point out to somebody that they’re not performing in a way that we have agreed are always difficult to do them in the right way. So the way the right spirit, and with the right intent, they’re never easy things to do. But the longer you leave it, the worse it’s gonna get,
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 33:01
or they’re just not participating in that particular meeting. How do you confront with care? Yeah, I find it. Right, I’m doing a lot more role playing with leaders. So if this happens into the meeting, what are you going to do? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 33:16
yes. What are the words that are going to come out of your mouth? Unless? Yeah, I’ve been rehearsing conversations, and it’ll be clunky To start with, great.
Unknown Speaker 33:26
Let’s get the clunkiness out the way when it’s just you and I. And then when you’re in that situation, you feel much more equipped? Yeah.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 33:33
When some anything, we should have asked that we didn’t. Oh, wow.
Unknown Speaker 33:41
I don’t, I don’t think so, you know, I think what was the wonderful opportunity, I have to capture things into, into that book, for me was a moment of, of drawing everything I had learned through, I mean, you know, talk about operating at the edge of your comfort zone. You know, and it was just a lovely moment to be able to pause and reflect and think and gather it all together in a in a way and offer it out to people as a as a, as a practical guide. You know, there’s there’s a lot of stuff I don’t know, but there’s some stuff that I do know, that I tried, and that had results, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to share it with more people.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 34:26
We love that. And folks can get your book on a candy bar
Unknown Speaker 34:31
called Amazon. Yep. And it’s called from physical place to virtual space, how to design and host transformative spaces online.
Unknown Speaker 34:41
Mitch Simon 34:45
That’s on Amazon. How are some other ways that people can find you?
Unknown Speaker 34:50
So so my website, I run a business called seeds of transformation. And that came about because I believe that we In each of us, there’s untapped potential. And also that, you know, sometimes there’s a great phrase that says, in order for a seed to express its full potential, it has to come completely undone. And I think when you combine that with the art of transformation, for me, that’s where the name came from. So seeds of transformation is my website. I’m offering some introduction workshops, like the one that Jenny took part in. And so they can be found on that website. There’s a, an events page there, and people can learn a little bit more about what we’ve been talking about, and what’s featured in the book. Great. Oh, great. Well, thank
Mitch Simon 35:41
you, Gwen. Thank you for I’ve just been taking down so many notes. How to apply this with the many teams that I lead. And I’m sure that everyone else on the call has been listening with just like, Oh, yeah, what about that? What about that, so thank you so much for that. Thank you, Ginny, for finding this amazing human. And for all of our listeners, please go out share, team anywhere with all of your friends and colleagues. And we were so excited to see you next time on our next episode of team anywhere. Bye bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai