Pardon our typo’s this transcript was created by our friends at https://otter.ai
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 0:36
Yeah. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Team anywhere. And this is Jenny Bianca methods on the east coast. And Mitch Simon on the west coast. And today, we are very excited to have Leon Davy, who is going to speak to us about quite a few topics in her area of expertise, of leadership, and teams, and working remote. And she has an incredible amount of tools and guidelines that we really are looking forward to getting out there. She is author of a great book called the good fight. And she is often asked to speak and give wonderful presentation and has written tons of stuff. And that is how I got turned on to her on HBr and the forum and a lot of other places that I have discovered since we spoke. So welcome.
Liane Davey 1:40
Thanks so much, Ginny. And Hi, Mitch, great to be here.
Mitch Simon 1:43
Great to see you. I can’t wait to hear but the good fight, I could use a good fight right now.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 1:47
Yes, yeah, most of us could. Great. So Liane, could you just talk to us a little bit about your background and your journey of how you got here and how you developed interest in the topics that you’re passionate about?
Liane Davey 2:03
Absolutely. I by way of background, I have a PhD in organizational psychology. And so I guess that’s the credentials for where I’m at. But the truth of why I am where I am, is probably because I grew up one of those people who really hates conflict. And over time, it turned out that I’m not the only one. And in my work with executive teams, I was starting to recognize that people’s discomfort with conflict was getting in the way of good business and creating a lot of stress. And so that’s how I ended up here, which is spending a lot of my time trying to convince people why they need to have more conflict.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 2:42
I know you want you want us to have more conflict. And I love it. So that as you said, got to to the good fight. Can you give an overview of that? I mean, why should we read this book?
Liane Davey 2:56
Yeah, so the book is done in three sections. And the first section is really important, because that’s where I make the case for conflict. So it’s pretty easy to especially in this day and age, what’s going on in our political environment, it feels like there’s enough conflict in the world, it’s very easy to believe that conflict is a bad thing and something we want to avoid. So the book starts with helping us understand what happens to our businesses, to innovation, to risk, what happens to our teams, to trust and engagement, and what happens to us in terms of our stress and our health, when we avoid issues that we really need to actually get to the other side of. So that’s where it starts and. I dig deep, and I get pretty personal about my own upbringing, my own challenges with conflict aversion, so I start there. And then it’s about building the skills. Cause even if you change your mindset, and you embrace productive conflict, and you realize it’s important, if you, if you don’t know how to do it, well, then conflict can be a very negative thing and very hurtful. So I spend three chapters in the middle of the book talking about how do you communicate, establish a line of communication? How do you create a connection so that you can have conflict as allies instead of as adversaries? And then how do you contribute to an effective solution? In a chapter I called conflict strategies for nice people. Yeah. And then the final section of the book goes to the probably the section I’m most excited about, which is if we rely on always having to have the difficult or the fiercer, the crucial conversation, that’s gonna burn us all out. It’s, it’s much too much to ask. So the final section, I teach you how to build a conflict habit, how to create some of the processes and systems that make conflict, just a part of everyday life on your team, so that it never gets to these big blow ups or these fierce conversations. We actually have conflict a lot more frequently, but with much lower impact. So that conflict habit section is something that I’m really proud of, and I think is the antidote to conflict being such a negative for us. And then I threw in a bonus section I called try this at home, which applies the ideas of how to have a good fight with your partner, oh, children, in your volunteer organizations. So that that was a bonus. But I had a lot of fun and, and often end up talking about those ideas as well.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 5:30
Fabulous. Could you give us an example of what are the ways to build that infrastructure for yourself? The third part of the book?
Liane Davey 5:43
Yeah, absolutely. So I wrote an article about this in Harvard Business Review, because I thought it was so important to just share with people these techniques. So one of the most important is to normalize conflict, particularly what I would call productive tensions. So I tell a story. It’s a silly story. But it’s a new metaphor that I think is helpful in thinking about it, because one of the problems is our metaphors for conflict, or for teams today come from rowing. So we talked about being in the same boat, we talked about pulling in the same direction. And so when someone goes to disagree, the poster on the wall is suggesting that’s not a good idea, the language we use. So I was looking for a new story and a new metaphor. And it came from a camping trip that I went on with my family many years ago. And we actually ended up in this huge rainstorm. And we needed to go by a plastic tarpaulin to try and cover our tent. And there were four of us, my husband and our two daughters. And we were, you know, trying to spread this tarp out and get it really tight, so the rain would roll off of it and also get it centered over the tent to provide as much protection as possible. And my husband kept pulling so hard, he sent our five year old like flying into into a mud puddle. And at some point, our other daughter who at the time was about nine got fed up and let go, and the corner of the tarp went flying up leaving the tent getting soaked. And you know, many years later, I had this epiphany that this tarp is actually a much better metaphor for teamwork than rowing is, actually we’re not pulling in the same direction as our teammates, when we’re doing our jobs, you know, the head of sales is paying attention to something different than the head of operations. And but what we are trying to do is put roughly the same amount of tension on things, never pulling so hard that we either, you know, pull the decision off target, making sure that the customers or the the shareholders get soaked in the tent, and, and also never being so afraid of conflict or fed up with conflict that we actually just let go and leave something exposed. So this silly story has been very helpful for people. And so we built an exercise around it. And there’s a template and a way of going around and saying what are each of the roles on our team? Or what as we call them the ropes on the tarp? And then we asked three questions, and you can do I really encourage your listeners do this with your team? It’s so such an epiphany when you do it. The first question, what’s the unique value of your role? And what’s the expertise and the experience your role brings that no other role in the team brings? Secondly, what stakeholders does your role represent? Because you know, sales is thinking about the customer. Sometimes the product people are the marketing people are thinking about the consumer, and those can be different people. And you know, operations is thinking about finances somebody else’s thinking about the regulator. There’s all different stakeholders and understanding which stakeholder a particular role is advocating for helps you understand why they might be intention with you. And then the final question is, what is your obligation to disagree? What’s the tension, you’re obliged to put on conversations? So the salesperson is obliged to fight for the customer to fight for flexible, different, interesting, differentiated product, and the operations person is obliged to put tension on that to say, hang on, we can’t be creating something new for every customer, we’d go bankrupt, and we know that’s not efficient in our factory or, and once you answer those three questions for each of the roles, first of all, it’s funny to hear what people say, you know, you get all sorts of hilarious things come out of people’s mouths, like, Oh, I thought you were just a jerk.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 9:38
Right?
Liane Davey 9:38
This is your job. You get funny comments, but the empathy that then is created and in the next decision, you start to see people saying, Okay, well, we haven’t even heard from the quality person yet. And so what’s that angle on this decision, and they start understanding the dynamic tension of these different roles. So when we do that exercise with people, they get a much better outcome and they start to normalize. So the next time it happens, when the ops guy says, You know, I ain’t taken that order for, you know, that whole bunch of ribs that you want me to, you know, do that’s gonna ruin our scrap rates on the line, I’m not doing it. When that happens. Instead of interpreting it as friction, interpersonal friction, and we don’t like each other, he’s a jerk, you interpret it as that productive tension that’s supposed to be there. That’s how you make an optimal decision for the organization and how you make sure nobody in the tent gets wet. So that’s one of the exercises that really makes a huge difference. It is written up in Harvard Business Review, and I’m always happy if people need more instructions, it can just shoot me a note, and happy to provide any more clarification.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 10:51
on that. One, we’ll put
Mitch Simon 10:52
notes on how to how to get to that Harvard Business Review article I love, I pretty much read both of you every day. So I love it. The question I have for you is, is we’ve actually had, we’ve addressed this on some earlier podcast is Okay, so, you know, I was on a team, where we didn’t we didn’t have a lot of conflict, or we we did, but it wasn’t really great. And now I’m dispersed, we’re not together in a room, we’re probably not going to be together in a room for a while. How am I supposed to engage? And I don’t know, shift the whole culture of my team? How do I engage in conflict when I’m just not next to these people? And and I should, in fact, be caring about them. And their, you know, their their situation? Can’t we just all be friends? And so I guess, you know, that’s, that’s what I I’m struggling with a little bit?
Liane Davey 11:52
Yeah, it’s hard. Because our norms are for the most part that we wait till we’re face to face to have difficult or uncomfortable conversations. And so there are a lot of people who are scheduling in that argument for January 2022. I’m ready, I’m gonna,
Mitch Simon 12:10
that’s kind of a busy day,
Liane Davey 12:11
right. And here’s the problem, the way the human brain works is that once we have that interaction that we’re feeling uncomfortable with, once we’ve jumped to a conclusion, like, you know, Frank turned off his camera while I was presenting, he was obviously not listening or not interested, once we jump to these conclusions, which we do. Every single interaction you have with Frank from here until that January 2022 meeting is going to be through that lens of that resentment and that baggage you already have. So people will often ask me, yeah, but Leanne, shouldn’t you pick your battles? And I say, Well, it depends. So yes, you should pick your battles. But here’s the problem. If what you’re saying is, I’m not going to let that go. I’m just not going to deal with it, then. No, that’s terrible advice. And we can talk about that. That’s where we get into conflict debt. And but if you are, if you are legitimately able to say you know what, it’s COVID people are really stressed, he might have just been turning off his camera cuz this kid was streaking naked through the back of the screen. I’m fine. I’m not going to jump to a conclusion. Yes, of course, pick that battle. But unfortunately, it turns out that most of the time, we make judgment that judgment affects the next email we get the way we read it. I always say emails have narrators, and we decide if we’re narrating it as Darth Vader sending us an email, or is Princess Leia sending us an email. And so if you’ve had an unsavory interaction with a teammate, you’re going to read their next email differently. And once you read their next email differently, you’re going to engage with them differently in the next call. And so the biggest thing we have to remember during these times is that letting things fester is going to add to your stress as Nelson Mandela said, resentment is you swallowing poison, hoping they’ll die. And we don’t need any more poison any more stress during COVID. And so it is important to overwrite that code that we all have, which is have hard conversations in person and we need to start engaging them. I did a YouTube video and we can link to that as well about how do you have conflict remotely. And turns out there are huge advantages to having conflict remotely like you can prepare. And you can make notes to yourself that you can refer to which, you know, when you’re in the middle of a fight with someone in the office and you’re looking at the notes on your hand. You look like a bit of a dork. But you know when you’re sitting at your computer, it’s easy. And so there are some advantages. So that’s the most important advice. So if you truly can be empathetic, be generous. let something go because we are all under a lot of stress and this isn’t normal fine, but don’t Kids yourself that you’re picking your battles, if really, you’re going to judge the other person, hold it against them and just not give them the chance to do anything about it, because you’re not going to tell them for 18 months.
Mitch Simon 15:12
So if I if I wanted to, if I want to have conflict with you, Liane, and let’s say you did something to me, and I wanted to engage in conflict with you around it, how would I even begin to do that? Because, you know, you’re in Toronto, and I’m here in San Diego. And we’ve got to do this, do this through zoom, what would be like a couple steps that I would take to have conflict with you and make this turn out? Okay.
Liane Davey 15:39
Yeah. So I think the first thing is to think about how do I set this up, so we can have this conversation as allies, because ultimately, we’re on the same team, we’re on the same side, right? So the first thing is, you’ve been thinking about it. And you’ve had the opportunity to prepare your examples and know just why you feel so wronged. And I haven’t. So this is contrary to most conventional wisdom, but I would encourage you to shoot a quick note. And not to get into the argument, but to actually give me a chance to center myself to know what’s coming to collect my own example. So you might send me a quick email and say, and I’ve been thinking about our meeting on Tuesday, and I’m uncomfortable with how we left the conversation about the Acme project, I’d love a chance to talk voice to voice with you or face to face with you about it, can we make time? so that email just gives me enough to know, okay, there’s something going on, I know what the topic is roughly. And so I can collect my thoughts. And it’s not going to feel like somebody’s jumping out of the bushes at me on a call, which that’s a lot more likely to trigger a defensive and emotional reaction, if it takes me by surprise. So start there, then when you get on the call, if if you are uncomfortable with it, name, the uncomfort. I didn’t know if I should even raise this. And you know, it was a one time thing. But it just wasn’t sitting right with me. And I really, I owe you the courtesy of telling you, this is what I’m thinking. So framing the conversation, first of all, to express that you’re uncomfortable, so that they’re a little bit careful with you. And they, right, they know that and also that you’re going to be a little careful with them. And, and, you know, just setting it up as let’s have this conversation as allies. And that’s another really important thing. So you might also then what you’re always trying to do is get the other person’s truth before imposing your truth. So I might then move to a question. So how did you feel about that conversation? And where do you think we left it? And how did you feel? You know, how do you feel Three days later? Those sorts of things, that’s going to give you a lot of information to work from, and it’s going to give you the chance to ask some questions and get at the point where you can then say back to them their truth, then you’ve earned the right. So that’s the most important thing when you speak someone else’s truth before you speak your own, you earn the right to share your truth and to have conflict as an ally. So that point, you might say, Okay, I’m really glad that you shared that with me. And you know, I was thinking about it differently. Here’s how I was thinking about it. And you can share your own truth before you then say, okay, where do we go from here? And I really want this to work. I’m really invested in this my senses, you’re really invested in this? You know, what might we do differently to move from here? You know, those kinds of questions. So, you know, first of all, giving a heads up really important. Getting into the conversation and naming the emotional reaction you’re having if you’re having one, and then soliciting their truth and paraphrasing it back to them before adding your own and figuring out okay, if those are the two truths, that’s your truth and my truth. Where do we go from here, so it’s not worse. And in some ways, it can be a little bit easier. When you’re doing it through the computer, there’s a little bit of emotional distance, a little bit of protection and safety, that guy can’t punch you. That’s not going to happen. Yeah. And it can be wearing your favorite slippers or whatever, while you’re doing it. So I just really encourage you to say, don’t let things fester during COVID. We have enough contagion in the world right now. We don’t need that emotional contagion of issues that were upset or resentful about. No, no. Oh, go
Mitch Simon 19:38
ahead. Go ahead. I’m sorry.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 19:41
Don’t you wish you can just clone her right? Yeah, right now.
Mitch Simon 19:45
Every Canadian should be cloned.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 19:47
Yeah, I think
Liane Davey 19:48
they’re gonna take away my Canadian citizenship for promoting more conflict. It’s very off brand.
Mitch Simon 19:54
That’s right. That’s right.
Liane Davey 19:56
I’m doing my bit.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 19:57
Now. This is great.
Mitch Simon 19:58
The only Canadian in the world permanently. Conflict right now.
Liane Davey 20:01
Ah, so true. So true.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 20:04
So here’s a leader, and he or she is now dealing in this remote world. And he’s read your book, or she’s read your book and is trying to practice this stuff. And he or she is running this team. maybe three or four people have interacted with her before? How does she create this kind of Let’s be use healthy conflict, a good fun as a team norm. Right? And of course, they can role model it here, and they can role model it there. And yet, I would be feeling a need to get everyone on the same page.
Liane Davey 20:55
Yeah, absolutely. So I really recommend using the tarp exercise, as as one way of, it makes a great way to spend an hour in a team meeting, and especially in this virtual world, it’s a great team building activity that you can do online. So I would highly encourage that. The other thing is to talk very specifically about where are the places? And what are the ways in which our team benefits from productive conflict? So get the team talking, you know, how does it help us in our decision making? How does it help us better understand diverse stakeholders that we have? How does it help us innovate, and so building out the business case for your specific team, not my language, not, you know, not anybody else’s language, but creating your own language. And then, you know, finishing that conversation with some really pithy, short norms or ground rules about conflict. And, you know, the one that I love is the Amazon rule around disagree and commit. And there’s actually more words to it in the Amazon, when it’s like, have the courage to disagree and commit or something like that. But it’s such a great one, because it says everybody in this organization has an obligation to disagree, even if you don’t disagree, you’re there to put tension on the ideas to stress, test them to make sure that they’re right. And once we have made the decision, you have an obligation to commit to making that decision successful. So though those words disagree, and commit are so important in that organization, and you can create your own versions on your team, and maybe two or three is all you need, where you have this conversation about the benefits, you have a conversation about what’s allowed and not allowed, you have the conversation about the tarp, so you understand how people, people’s roles affect this. And then you sum it up with you know, here’s our two or three bumper sticker type statements that are going to guide our behavior. And it makes a wonderful team building session. Yes, that’s perfect.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 23:07
I love it.
Mitch Simon 23:09
Yeah. And also, it also sounds like one thing a manager could do, especially since we’re not in the same room is to say, Okay, so now that we’ve discussed this area, this is the this is the disagreement part of our of our meeting right now. So I need for everyone to kind of share with me where they don’t agree with what I just said,
Liane Davey 23:30
Absolutely. Don’t have a conflict culture established. And I also tell this to Canadian clients, I say ask for it as a favor. So if people don’t like to disagree with the boss, things like that, and very true in Asian cultures, there are lots of places where there’s big power differentials. As the manager asked for it as a favor, I really need your help, I really need to anticipate where there might be some resistance to this plan. What might upset people about this? What might people say, counter to this plan? So asking for it as a favor, is really useful. And then you can also ask it as a hypothetical. That’s another way of adding a little emotional distance for people who don’t like conflict. if somebody were to have a problem with this, what might it be? And again, you just create enough emotional distance that they can tell you, they’ll usually start the sentence with like, this isn’t me like, I don’t think this but but here’s what it might look like. And so those are some techniques you can use to encourage that spot in the meeting where you switch to, okay, this is the time where we’re really going to go at it for a little bit, put some to pull those ropes of the tarp, put some tension on these ideas to to make them better.
Mitch Simon 24:48
Yeah, another thing that I was present to was the fact that because because we are distant that you could, you could approach it to say well, you know, the end You and I had a meeting last week. And of course, we’re not in the same room. And, and so I just want to call to check something out in order to in order to come at it from a way of I’m mad, and I know that I, I know why I’m mad. Versus I just need to check something out. I’m just really curious, are you in the same place that I’m in? Because I do think that one of the things about the hardest thing about conflict is usually we think that we know why something is bad or wrong or different. And I would say leverage, leverage the space of distance to say, well, we’re not in the same room. So I just, I don’t think I fully understood, let’s kind of figure this out.
Liane Davey 25:44
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the more space and time you can make for one another, to just have those casual conversations, one of the things I’m noticing about team meetings via the web, is this medium tends to make us get down to business very quickly. So when you walk into a meeting room, there’s almost always five minutes of small talk where people are settling in, and then somebody sits down and gets back up to get water. Like there’s that time, it’s under 30 seconds on web calls I’m finding. So bring that time back in right, say, you know, everybody, you know, comes into the room starting at the top of the hour, the business begins at five after or 10, after those sorts of things so that we can start to have the like, Hey, what do you think of that are, you know, those sorts of check in moments that we haven’t had, and finding opportunities to do that through other means. So you have a coffee room, like a Zoom Room that’s permanently just the coffee room, that’s even the URL, right is the coffee room, and people can jump in there and go see if anyone’s in there and have informal conversations. So we need to bring back that time to suss one another out and just kind of feel out where people are on things, because we’ve lost a lot of that through this very, so I’m actually finding, there’s some big productivity enhancements of working remotely, but those productivity gains are coming at the expense of the more subtle, nuanced kind of communication.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 27:20
Totally, that is great. And that’s how you bring in the, the humanity again. Yeah, and
Liane Davey 27:27
we do. So I was talking to a friend last night, and she’s, she’s a comedian, and also a keynote speaker and, and she does a lot of stuff in the workplace. And she was just asking what I was seeing. And I said, I’m just seeing from my clients that we have become joyless. We’ve become humorless, and we’re coping with COVID, I think incredibly well. And for the most part, quite impressively, at the cost of any joy in our work at the moment, there is just this efficiency to it there. It’s, you know, it was interesting, I read a great study of what’s happened in the US Patent and Trademark Office post COVID. And they’ve seen because they have such clear ways of measuring output. So the number of patent files reviewed and the number of trademark files, they’ve seen a 14% and a 13% increase in productivity, with working remotely, they can measure it 9% of that is from the fact that people are working more hours, they have just taken their commute time and plowed it in to working. And the good news is 4% of it is true productivity gains from reduced distraction of working remotely, etc, etc. But, and all of that is a great formula for productivity, but not a great formula for for camaraderie for long term resilience, and all those other things. So we got to bring the joy back. And I want to do that thing where you pay for an elephant to join your meeting. That’s going to be my next one. There’s an Elephant Sanctuary in Thailand, you can pay to have the elephant join your meeting. And I’ve been in so many meetings with an elephant in the room. But I’ve never been in a meeting with an elephant in the room.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 29:08
I love it. Excellent. That’s great. And so you sort of answered this, maybe you can elaborate just a little bit. What are you doing in the meetings that you’re holding? along this line, it sounds like you’re trying to do some upfront things to to bring the joy back.
Liane Davey 29:32
Mostly trying to slow things down a little bit. So there is this drive and cadence in online meetings that I think is a little too fast. So we push too hard to get to closure and we converge too quickly. So as a facilitator, the biggest advantage I can bring is, you know, just as people are starting to converge, I can throw something in that puts a wrench in it or I can say Are we there already? You know, can we take one more round on that? Or, you know, I’ve just been reflecting on not what we just talked about, but how we talked about it. How did that feel for everybody, right? Yeah, a lot of what I’m doing is putting some speed bumps in. Because, you know, everybody is driving as if they’re in a straight away. And some of the decisions we’re making during this time are actually more like hairpin turns. And so I can slow people down a little bit. make them think both about the the wash, but also the how. That’s the best thing in meetings right now just adding a little oxygen to the meeting. Because there, there isn’t enough. It just seems to be we were already in February, we were already feeling what the cadence of this business environment is like, and it was already too much. It’s just worse now. So we have to make some more space. So the more you can do little things to slow it down. The better.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 31:00
That’s that needs to be your next blog. No, I think I think you’re right, this straightaway now. Yeah, we need to put something else in it. So that brings me to a final question around your own growth and movement and insights. What journey Have you been on?
Liane Davey 31:21
Yeah, that that’s a great point. So when when Canada issued its international lockdown, my family and I were in Costa Rica. It was a bit stressful trying to our flights got canceled. And we were not just in Costa Rica, like we were in middle of nowhere, Costa Rica that needed a ferry. And this it was Planes, Trains and Automobiles to get our family back. And, and I was, well, let’s just among friends say I was freaking out. And my husband, we left our kids at the Airbnb. And we went and hiked a waterfall and got up to the top of this gorgeous waterfall in the jungle. And I sat there. And in a moment of calm, I remembered Rahm Emanuel’s line about never let a crisis go to waste. I thought, I’m not going to waste this crisis, I’m going to learn something I’m going to grow, I’m going to. And so I think the most important thing I’ve realized by hunkering down. So I had 26 flights between the first of January and the 20th of March, I was always on the road, I would. And now I’ve been, you know, with my family grounded for seven months. And the biggest thing I realized is that I was running someone else’s race. And I was judging myself against people who have very different purposes in the world than I do. And when I realized that this conflict message, the messages of resilience and the things we can do to make work have a more meaningful impact on our lives. That’s my work. And the more I focus on that, and the less I worry about what other people are doing, or who’s giving keynotes to bigger audiences, or who’s working with a higher fortune 500 list, get better. And the more I can make space to serve the people that I think I can add some value for. And it was just so interesting, because so many people just kind of dropped out and other people became so much more precious to me. And and I think it’s been a reckoning for a lot of us about what was I doing? Who was I in a relationship with? What activities was I pursuing, all in search of something that doesn’t really matter and what matters. And so, now, I’m just so obsessed with this idea that, you know, there are many, many, many hard things about work, and particularly about teamwork. And if I can take my background in psychology, take my experience, take my writing, and direct all of that to helping people better communicate better connect and better contribute so they can achieve amazing things together, that that’s what matters most. And then at 530, turn off the computer, bake a loaf of bread, be with my family. And so COVID actually been been a gift, thankfully, because we’ve been able to stay healthy, and we’ve been able to rebound our business, and it’s been a gift.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 34:33
I love it. I love it. And Mitch, and I appreciate that you have included us in here. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 34:43
I’d love
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 34:45
to share and have spread out into the world.
Mitch Simon 34:49
Yes, yeah. Can we really you know, Ginny and I started this podcast for the same reason, which is okay, it’s time to stop, reflect. And yeah, we want to give we want to give solutions for people who are dispersed. Yeah, we also want to bring, you know, hope and meaning for this time that we’re going through and finding ways like you’re saying, Well, you know what, maybe there’s, there’s benefits of being dispersed, to handle the things that are not so easy. Yeah. And maybe this, this time is time for you to just look at the conflict within yourself to say, What do you really, really want because you have more time, and you are for many of us surrounded by the people we really, really love, which which makes it more graceful. Well, gosh, you’re now my new favorite Canadian. Thank you so much, and Ginny, why don’t we take them home?
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 35:41
Totally. Thank you so much again, and on. The folks can get your book, I assume on Amazon. And you mentioned a pod,
Liane Davey 35:56
A YouTube video so I can start about how to have conflict remotely. So I’m happy to give you the link to that as well if people want just a little more detail and a little more practice.
Mitch Simon 36:08
So we’ll we’ll pick your your website, your your video, the HBR article, a link to the book.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 36:17
People All right,
Unknown Speaker 36:18
that have ginzu knives all in the
Mitch Simon 36:22
second place.
Ginny Bianco-Mathis 36:22
Terrific.
Mitch Simon 36:24
Thank you. Thank you, you all and thank you for all our great listeners for another episode of team anywhere
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
