Transcript Ep. 9 How to Unlock Potential with Phil Lewis, Founder Corporate Punk, UK

Excuse our typos, this transcript was created by our friends at otter.ai

Mitch Simon 0:10
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere where CEOs, leaders, and experts are building teams, companies, organizations, and amazing cultures

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 0:21
share how to lead from anywhere in the world. I’m your co host on the East Coast chicken, Bianca Mathis,

Mitch Simon 0:27
and I’m your co host on the West Coast. Mitch Simon. And we invite you to join us team anywhere.

Today on Team anywhere we interview Phil Lewis, founder of corporate punk, a consultancy based in the UK committed to a better way of making lasting positive change to businesses, he shares with us how to have your remote company thrive, and how creating social contracts around conflict is so important for creativity, and innovation. We hope you enjoy this episode of team anywhere.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 1:12
Welcome, everyone, to another episode of team anywhere. And today we are thrilled to have with us Phil Lewis, the founder and leader of corporate punk, who I’m sure will we’ll hear more about that. And welcome Phil coming from London.

Unknown Speaker 1:32
Thank you lovely to be here and to have the opportunity to talk with you guys.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 1:37
Fabulous. So let’s start off with your company. I saw a lot of action on LinkedIn lately, that it is the fifth year and diversity of corporate punk, which is always exciting. And I’d love to know about your company, the name of your company. And what distinguishes corporate punk from other consulting companies out there.

Unknown Speaker 2:02
Well, I mean, thank you, and, and not least for LinkedIn mentioned, so we So yeah, I mean, the business has been going five years and in a weird way actually came about as an achievement. Because I mean, certainly in the UK, something like only one in five businesses makes it to its fifth year, right 80% of businesses will fail in the first five years. beyond that. Also, when we set the business up, it was like, as I said, in an article I wrote at the time, it was this really this scrappy outlier of a thing that, you know, had no money behind it, we had, you know, no, it wasn’t as if we had massive founding client or anything like that at all. It was literally at the time, me and a laptop, and some ideas. And, you know, those ideas were, and they still power the work, I think today, but the ideas actually came from about, you know, came from my experience for over about 15 or 20 years working in both consulting and in the creative industries. And the thing that I got mystified by, was I was routinely surrounded by people who had loads of energy, loads of talent, loads of good ideas, lots of passion, loads of ingenuity, and, you know, wanted to get out of bed every single morning and do an absolutely brilliant job for the organizations that they were working with before. And yet, so very rarely did all of that energy ideas, tell them passion, ingenuity, whatever you want to call it become greater than the sum of its parts. And I became really interested in why is it that we build businesses that are that are less than the sum of their parts? Why is it that that a lot of businesses aren’t able to unleash talent, energy ideas? And what have you at scale? And the answer to that question, and we can talk more about this interesting, but the answer that question ended up being far more complicated than I thought it has to do with, you know, how psychology works, what how well an organization’s lead, what we do around structure, we do run systems and processes. There’s all sorts of different things that come into it about how we don’t think systemically and whatever. And I got to a stage where I was like, well, wouldn’t it be really interesting to found a consultancy, that actually did what it said on the tin? Wouldn’t it be interesting to found a consultancy that worked with other businesses to help them be their natural, brilliant, imperfect best when they came into work every day? What would it actually mean to start a consultancy, that was about unlocking the potential of other businesses? And that’s where corporate punk came from. So I really set out five years ago to create what is basically an anti management consultancy. That was kind of the where I started, and, and to say that people thought I had lost my mind was to understate the case. Really, you know, I mean, certainly people, friends and family, we sat there going, why don’t you just go work for McKinsey, you know, and I don’t actually want to do something that makes a difference in the world. So yeah, fine. years down the line. I’m really proud to say we’ve actually survived. And, you know, because chances I think we’re against it five years ago.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 5:09
Interesting, that is fabulous. And something that in a previous conversation that you and I had, you talked about. And I also saw by your website, all, the way you all like to consult is to go directly to the people. Because those are the ones that have the energy that are getting up in the morning and want to be creative and innovative.

Unknown Speaker 5:38
Well, I think it’s, I think a lot of consultancies are really good at regarding human beings as though they’re, like, fungible assets on a spreadsheet. So they will sit there and they will go, they see people as you know, I absolutely load the phrase human capital, for example, because, you know, it, it sort of reduces in a way to just being you know, something else on a balance sheet. Yeah, the way that we in the way that we frame it. And, and so for me, a lot of consultancies will treat people either like fungible assets are like robots wanting, waiting to be optimized, you know, and I don’t know about you, but I, I rebel against the idea that I’m a robot wanting waiting to be optimized, right. I’m a unique human being, I there was one in a trillion chance me ever being born and there won’t be someone else liked me again. And that’s also true of every human being on the planet. So, so for me, if you’re going to consult with an organization, look at the human beings, you’ve got one, this sounds so obvious, right? But look at the human beings you’ve got working for you. And don’t spend your time trying to look at the levels of the slow and expensive reform of systems and processes. I think when I look at management consulting, there is a whole industry that has just grown up around making business far more complicated than it actually needs to be right. In general, if things are going well, it’s probably people and if things are going wrong, it’s probably people. So So go and go and see what’s going on with your people and work with them through your people to try and help them be better. And so much consultancy doesn’t do that.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 7:20
Well, I’m thinking about how you and I first got acquainted, and it was through an excellent article you wrote for forum, in titled Why remote working isn’t just for like, locked down, it’s for life. And what intrigued me in that article is you quoted several CEOs and how they were leading in remote environments. Can you share some of the key lessons that came from talking to them and and coming up with your article and summarizing?

Unknown Speaker 7:51
Well, I think I think if you if you there’s been a lot of talk about remote working, I’ll be honest with you and say, I’m not particularly I think a lot of remote working articles, fall foul of this sort of musing that can happen about the future of business, right? And you know, what is what is the future of business, I’m not really interested in the future business. I’m like, we’re in the middle of this massive pandemic. And we’re also in the middle of one of the great economic crises globally of all of our lifetimes. I don’t really care what the Office of five or 10 years looks like, at the moment, let’s focus on helping people today, right, and the problems that they’ve got today. So my interest in remote working, I suppose, comes from a perspective, which is what is it people need to know now, in order to, in order to bring the best out of their people, given that we’re not in the same, they’re not in the same rooms as them a lot of the time? So what are the things that they need to be aware of now? And I think the first thing to say, is that remote working? I mean, we’re talking here over? Well, a couple of platforms, but one of the resume remote working is not your office life via zoo, right there are, it is a fundamentally different mode of engagement for, for some pretty simple reasons, you know, we can’t really see each other’s body language in the way that we would do if we were together, we don’t necessarily get the same, this is gonna sound a little bit woowoo. But we don’t necessarily get the same energetic exchange that necessarily get our attention spans on zoom are generally a lot lower. Part of the reason for that is there’s also an intensity to interactions that happen over zoom that you don’t see in other, you know, in necessarily in face to face. And it’s also the the exhaustion of the new right for many of us, we don’t really have we don’t really have that all the time. So for me, I’m kind of interested in how do we navigate that? Well, I think we navigate that by being conscious of a few things. The first one is is about communication. So I would say you know Any kind of remote working protocol you’re trying to embrace, the first thing that you need to be thinking through is how am I going to over communicate with my people, because that regularity of communication that happens in most offices is not happening in the same way, because there isn’t just that kind of improvised exchange that happens in most, in most places. So, so, you know, especially at times of change as well, communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate is like this, like the foundational level and I say to a lot of leaders, the job of being a leader, you know, I coach or mentor CEOs, right, and I say to a lot of them, you’re just going to have to get used to being mind numbingly repetitious, like over communicate, because because people don’t necessarily absorb everything on the first go. The second thing is to think about to think about companionship. So actually, outside of just the work stuff that we’re doing in every single office, there’s so much stuff that happens that is about building a sense of connection between you and other people. So for me, it’s, you know, okay, when the sun really British here, but you know, the British office tradition of making a cup of tea for your colleagues, you know, I know it’s impossible to go get a good cup of tea in the United States, but let’s just let’s just say coffee instead, you know, that the exchanges, the social exchanges that happen are so, so so important to the functioning of healthcare teams. Beyond that, I would say also, so if you’ve got, you know, if you’ve got communication, and you’ve got companionship, the next thing is conflict. So this is not remarked on and Jenny, you know, I’ve talked about this briefly, the other environment, but how are we going to handle disagreements when we’re not actually together. And I do a lot of work in the creative industries, for example, dissent and conflict are absolutely integral to the one’s ability to deliver good quality creative work, well, it can be really hard to disagree, you know, on zoom in a very public way, it can be very hard to know what happens if we’re in conflict with others. And a lot of teams haven’t contracted around how they’re going to deal with conflict. So there’s another issue that happens there. And then the final thing I want to just say, is around connection. So it’s very tempting to think about connection, but it’s all about, are we, you know, are we available for meetings, and how much time should be spending in meetings, but I think there’s a slightly deeper point to be made about connection, which is that

Unknown Speaker 12:34
which is the there is on time, and there is off time in remote working. And the real value of off time, I think, is in the ability to think more deeply. Most businesses are really good at busy work, they get distracted, just doing lots of stuff. And if you look at Cal newports, writing about deep work, what he says in deep work is this idea of, we’ve got to be able to switch off sometimes and really think a deeper level about what we’re doing with our businesses. And again, remote work should be allowing us the chance to do that. And isn’t because we’re just replicating the same old meeting treadmill through zoom. So if you go back to those four C’s, we talked about the four C’s of remote working, we talked about communication, we talked about companionship, we talk about conflict, and we talk about connection. Those are not easy things to master. But if one can master those and work out what it means for how you were in a team, I believe there is a chance to build a high performing team in a remote working environment.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 13:32
Exciting.

Mitch Simon 13:34
Excellent. Can you tell us more about the contract around conflict? Because I I’m noticing that as well with my clients is there. They don’t know how to have conflict, especially in a zoom or a team Microsoft team setting?

Unknown Speaker 13:49
Well, I suppose the first question I would go to matches is do they do they know how to have conflict at all? Because I mean, just as a general, as a general observation on Coronavirus, there have obviously been some industries that have been impacted by almost a generation or once a generation events I’m thinking here of tourism and entertainment and hospitality, for example. And, but there’s a lot of other industries for whom what this pandemic has just done is shot a really harsh and unforgiving light on things that were already going wrong in their organizations. Right. So the first question is, are they are they are they good conflict and, and a lot of the time, what I think you can get into is that there are some real misunderstandings going on with, you know, the individual level sometimes or, you know, within leaders or whatever about what conflict actually is and whether or not it’s actually a healthy thing, certainly in Britain on a cold speak to the US and it’s with the same level of authority. But certainly in Britain, we are trained to believe that conflict is unhealthy a lot of the time we’re trained to believe that Any kind of direct conversation is a conflict conversation. And we’re trained to believe that healthy businesses or businesses where conflict doesn’t occur. So so when I walk into a business and go, if you’re not disagreeing with each other, we’ve got a massive problem. It sounds it sounds quite counterintuitive. So I think the first thing I would say image got it, we’ve got to really look at what the baseline levels of understanding are around what conflict means. Now psychologically, the thing that we measure at corporate punk is we go, can you resolve conflict quickly and for the greater good? So what that means is, are you able to move through it? And could you get somewhere as a result of that conflict together that you couldn’t get individually? Now, if that’s the working definition of, of what conflict is, that’s a much, much healthier definition than the thing that was just pointing right. And then And then finally, you know, we, we do, then a lot of work around, particularly helping people to prep some of those conversations. So again, a lot of Brits will really struggle with assertion, for example, we’re very, very difficult to get into a conversation where we’re going to be able to hold an uncomfortable space, if you can’t actually assert what that you know, assert what you’re thinking or feeling about something in the first place. So I think to your point about contracting, a lot of contracting, which is a very koshien Consulting kind of word just means the way that things are gonna run around here, is really about coming back to the definition and about people permissioning each other, whether it’s on zoom or elsewhere to go, it’s okay for things to get uncomfortable. And let’s work through this together and embracing that itself as a practice.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 16:35
Excellent, beautiful. So that actually is a good segue to the other question that I wanted to ask you, which is given your own tangible experience with remote teams, and also doing 10 minute seminars remotely, what techniques have you used to foster a culture? You know, beyond the four walls?

Unknown Speaker 16:59
I think I think in terms of you want to look at what again, you got to look at the ingredients of a culture, and we could probably spend about 10 podcast length episodes talking about the ingredients of a high performance culture. I would find fascinating. I don’t know about anybody else. But so when you talk about building a culture, I think the thing that I go to there is a couple of foundational level a couple of foundational points, actually. So so the first would be around, values alignment. And the second thing would be about, you know, intellectual vision and capital. Right. So let me just talk to each of those things. I think in the end, and teams that stay together and work well together, primarily are teams that are aligned on values, right. So so one of the most helpful pieces of business advice that I received was about 10 years ago, when my he’s still actually one of my mentors. Now, he said to me, Phil, if you if you don’t share your peoples, or your clients values, divorces inevitable, it’s just a matter of how much blood gets spilt on the carpet. I thought this is brilliant, because I thought what I actually heard in that was don’t work with them in the first place, because you’re in a hiding to nothing. So again, I mean, to your earlier point, Mitch, about you know, about how do we contract with with people around conflict and the baseline misconceptions there are and I was saying sometimes Coronavirus, Sean’s highlight on, you know, problems, I would say the first thing is go to values and our values aligned with the team. Now if values are aligned, if we care about the same things, being building good culture, in a context of remote working means we should go back to those values and understand how we now articulate them in this new way of engagement. So for example, if I’m really customer focused, like, like, what, right, so give me actually give you a working sample from our own consultancy. So one of our five values. So our five values, I can tell you are integrity, excellence, care, mutuality, and grit. Right? Those are the five things that we care about. So if I take the value of excellence, I would I can tell you how it’s worked through in our business, which has been Okay, guys, the thing that we’ve been historically absolutely excellent at is mobilizing teams of people together, usually both face to face interaction with them in rooms right. Now we’ve got this platform to work with, we’ve got really busy and stressed out clients because all sorts of things are going on. We’ve got any number of other things, they’re swinging in around budgets and so on. How do we continue to embrace excellence in that context? And honestly, those conversations that come back to value offer a huge boon at the level of culture. Because actually, what you’re doing is you’re reasserting all of the time. What do these people have in common and what is they care about? So the process of working through them Questions about how we articulate excellence in our marketplace have actually helped to reinforce how we work together as a team. And then very quickly, the intellectual unity and intellectual capital point is about, ultimately, do we share the same view of the world? Right? Are we United at the level of we not that we think the same thing. But ultimately, broadly, we think the world is moving in the same direction. So all of our people at corporate punk will routinely go. We think that as time goes on management consulting will need to shift to become more focused on people. We think the business success is around innovation, not just efficiency, we think that actually really good business is about, you know, Money Follows value, not value follows money, right? These are the things that we think if we all have that in common, we continue to reassert that. And that really helps. So you see, what I’m saying is not give you things, it’s continue to reassert the things that you have in common, and that you’ve always done.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 21:00
I love that, because it doesn’t mean, oh, I heard about this cool technique that we can use. And so let’s do it tomorrow on our zoom call. Don’t do that in absence of how does it emphasize one of our three to five to six values? So we can always show that link?

Unknown Speaker 21:23
Fill? Absolutely.

Mitch Simon 21:25
So fill in when you’re working with your clients, a corporate punk, and they come to you and they say, hey, Phil, you know, we’ve been in this COVID thing for quite some time. Can you help us? Let’s say dig deeper into our values in this new type of a off the campus situation? What are some of the things that you do to actually have them dig down deeper and figure out how to convey and demonstrate values in this new world?

Unknown Speaker 21:56
Number one question when it comes to values, my the number one go to point for all of us is an organization doesn’t get to redefine its values, its values or its values, organizations are just really good at is going to swear them but be asking themselves around what their values actually are. So so a lot of organizations are really good at, you know, I was talking to a business last week, I should say, we’ve done it, we’ve redone our values three times in 10 years. And my point was, we’ve just never captured them accurately Then have you because because you know, your values, what your organization deeply cares about don’t really didn’t really change, right, and you don’t change them by writing them on a poster that sits on your wall. So so my favorite question around values, Mitch is why have you fired the last six people you’ve fired? Right? Because outside of instances of Gross Misconduct, businesses routinely Park company with their people for values violations, right? accepting, there’s been some horrendous downturn in performance, people do get laid off for that reason. And they also get laid off because they’ve, you know how that ends in the tiller, whatever. But you’ll notice mostly about values violations, right? So actually, if you if you look at, if you can go, I’ll actually Well, we, we, we fired Bob, because Bob didn’t really care about, you know, making sure the invoices were accurate, right. And there was one too many mistakes. Well, that’s going to tell us a lot about precision as a value. And all we fired Sarah, because Sarah was a bit rude to a customer. And we don’t do that that might tell us a lot about courtesy is about you, or about customer services value. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is then as a as a as a sense, check is to be able to go What are the opposite? So the things that we think are our values? And would any company plausibly claim to have those. So for example, and the opposite of excellence, in corporate ponteland, which I was talking about earlier on isn’t actually not being very good, the opposite of excellence is being good enough, right? excellence is going above and beyond for its own sake, and for the sake of your standards being good enough is what the client so so and that’s, that is actually an opposite of that value, that that a company would potentially claim for itself, it could feasibly claim that so so this is the problem with values like trustworthiness, there is no company in the world that would claim to be untrustworthy. So the two senses are a sum of two favorite questions. One, why have you find the last half dozen people and two, if we think those are our values? Let’s let’s double check and see if anybody would claim their opposite. You have to be able to say yes, against each of those, even just to doing those two quick exercises, you often get further into defining your company’s actual values. Oh, the third one, by the way, so is what have we invested in in the past, right? So what have been the things that we’ve invested in because again, what you spend money on tends to indicate what you care about. So a company that’s routinely spent money on loads of r&d that hasn’t worked is a company that maybe values innovation or experimentation, right? And there are companies that would value the opposite of that back to my previous point, which would be actually about maybe incremental ism, say, or about or about repetition. So do you see what I mean? So all of those things, I think, get you closer to what an actual values are. And I’m not interested in claimed values, I’m interested in actual values,

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 25:24
you fail. I have never heard anyone explain it. So clearly, with three excellent exercises like that. Thank you so much. So you have been on a journey yourself even before a corporate punk? And what have you learned about yourself as a leader that has brought you to the kind of thinking you are today, you know, the evolutions perhaps that you’ve gone through?

Unknown Speaker 25:59
I would say to you, I mean, I was, it was a process of doing and then undoing. So for me, learning to be learning to be a leader. And I think it’s weirdly, I think leader is a word that should be used about you rather than use it about yourself, right? So. So maybe that’s a maybe that’s a northern English thing, I don’t know. But I struggled to self define as a leader, if you see what I mean. But as somebody with leadership responsibility, I was very young to that. So by the age of 28, which was many years ago, but by the age of 28, I was, that was the first time I was a managing director. And I thought I had it all sorted, and then that business fell apart, because I didn’t know very much, and, and then I had to unlearn a lot of stuff. And so I would say, I would say a number of things come off that for me, one is that I think humility is critical to leadership, right? So and what humility means is really just that ability to embrace the fact that, you know, you don’t know all the time, what you think, you know, or that you should know, and you are going to make mistakes, and you are humble. And, and the the the world still has a lot to teach you in the process of learning is a lifetime journey. And I see a lot of leaders, particularly insecure leaders, who actually don’t have that level of humility, because it’s almost like, their need for perfection drowns out the ability to actually have any level of humility so that their insecurity means that they need to present themselves as perfect, which means that it’s a new learning. So I found humility to be the first thing. The second thing is a related point to humility as well is, is that I’ve just become really close to what I’m not very good at, right. So I don’t really spend time working on my weaknesses working on your weaknesses, waste of energy, you have to neutralize your weaknesses and work from where you’re strong. And I’m basically only good at about three things in the world, right? I’m good, I’m good, I’m good at thinking of new things and writing about them. And, and I’m good at sitting with clients and having conversations with them about where they’re at and what they should do. And I’m occasionally good at standing on a stage and talking about the insights that come from the first two things. And in almost every other situation, I’m totally hopeless, I can’t project manage. I’m not very good financially. And I really struggle sometimes to, to switch off from work, I can be very demanding, and people around me all this other stuff. And so actually, what I’ve learned over the years is compensate for that. Right? work on yourself, which is what humility is about is constant self analysis and work. And I have coach mentor counselors who helped me through that. And then the second thing is also, the second thing is also build diverse team of people around you who can do the things you can and respect their abilities to do that, rather than to do it for them. And those things, honestly, I but I really do see it as Lifetime’s work. I don’t see it as being something that you’ve cracked by the age of 30 or 35. If you know,

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 29:10
right, you don’t ever become learning finished.

Unknown Speaker 29:13
Or the leader finished?

Unknown Speaker 29:15
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 29:16
Yeah. And you know, you sort of I look at some of the most admired leaders in the world and you know, people who’ve done remarkable things, and I think to myself, that’s still a journey, you should go on. Look at Elan musk. This is not a man who’s getting everything right. That’s human beings, right. We’re all imperfect. And I think I think the embrace of imperfection is actually kind of like one of the one of the great liberating truths just embrace the fact you’re in perfect and rather than struggle. This is what I hate about business schools. By the way, a lot of the time. What they’re basically saying is the gold standard to which you should aspire, right? Don’t be like that. Don’t try and squeeze out your brilliance for the sake of perfection. Work out who you are and work from that place and try and improve from that place, you know,

Mitch Simon 30:09
we’d like to take this brief interruption to thank our sponsors and they get back to our program. We’d like to thank Marymount University, Arlington, Virginia School of Business and Technology, innovative solutions upskilling for the what’s next economy@mariemont.edu oyster organizational development dedicated to higher performance, business success and leveraging teams at oyster od.com. And we jungo a strategic people process consulting firm at we JO ngo.com. So, Phil, a great answer. I’m wondering, when we were back at the ranch, as we say, here in the United States. And you were doing or many companies were doing pulse surveys. What happened now is we’re all dispersed in a lot of companies are doing poll surveys, do you think that there are specific areas that they’re now going to miss? Because they’re using the same tools to figure out how the organization is working? Now that we’re not together in the same working space?

Unknown Speaker 31:16
My my thing about pulse surveys is that I think a lot of the time one, they’re not examining the right things. And two, if they aren’t what they’re examining, sometimes they would examine the what they wouldn’t examine the why. Right. So. So, you know, and again, there’s, there’s lots and lots of different polls service, there is a danger. I think Mitch is talking a little bit to Jen realistically here, but I’ll give you just the experience from some of the stuff that we’ve seen that this, which is that, you know, the pulse survey might give you overall levels of engagement, it might give you engagement scores, for example, but it wouldn’t necessarily look at what the drivers of that engagement are. Now, in our view, drivers of engagement will be down to things like levels of vision by it within the organization, or another driver of engagement would be people having an appropriate level of autonomy in their organization, right is a huge driver of engagement. And, and, and people feeling able to take well manage risks is another driver of engagement. Now, a lot of poll surveys are examining that. So consequently, what you get is you get this sort of thing that’s going on, which actually might give you some clue as to how the organization is thinking or feeling. But it’s not examining deep enough fundamentals for you to be able to know what those drivers are, and therefore what to do about them. Right. So I think sometimes, you’re almost better off. And this is going to not make friends and HR, right, but but bear with me, I think you’re almost better off. Sometimes, either ignoring some of that poll stuff, or complimenting some of that poll stuff with the actual discipline of going out there and talking to real human beings with open heart open mind, and listen to what they’ve got to teach you. Because the one thing that my work has proven in the last five years in my working life, and my team would tell you the same thing is that the vast majority of people go through work each day without ever feeling as though anybody’s heard what they had to say, really heard what they had to say. Which brings me to the other point, by the way, and then we’re gonna be quiet 87% of people in the UK do not believe that their employer does anything with the data that he that the employer captures about them and their experience. Right. So So there’s your the problem not only is it not examining the right things a lot of the time and not it’s not giving you the why it’s just giving you the wallet to the extent it’s giving you the tool. The other thing is that no one thinks you’re doing anything with it anyway. So antidote to all that talk conversation, engagement, genuine engagement, open heart open mind, listen to what’s going on. And ask the five why’s ask any ask any ask any question, to ask why it is going wrong? Why is going wrong five times you’ll get to the root cause the answer? So so that would be what I would say. It’s like It’s like, get into the job of actually hearing what people have to say to you.

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 34:17
Fabulous. And of course, that could be done in this kind of environment. Right now. Right? I take five, six people, and I do a focus group right here on zoom. And I asked that kind of give me an example. Right? behavioral behavioral.

Unknown Speaker 34:35
Yes, you

Ginnie Bianca-Mathis 34:36
as Phil. Oh, my gosh, this has been wonderful. We want to thank you so much for your insights that folks can listen to and think about how they might apply as they’re going on their own journeys. Mitch,

Mitch Simon 34:59
I want to thank you Fell that was really really great stuff great to get a perspective from someone across the pond, and also someone who is playing the same game, which getting an IR, which is this entire management consulting type of management consulting. And I really do appreciate now I know actually what to do for a living. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. And we look forward to maybe speaking to you soon. And we’ll see you next time.

Unknown Speaker 35:27
Thank you guys very much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai