Mitch Simon 0:10
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere where CEOs, leaders and experts are building teams, companies, organizations, and amazing cultures share how to lead from anywhere in the world.
Unknown Speaker 0:24
I’m your co host on the East Coast chicken Bianca Mathis,
Mitch Simon 0:28
and I’m your co host on the West Coast. Mitch Simon. And we invite you to join us to Team anywhere.
Today on the podcast, we have john Chen, founder of geo teaming and author of the new book, engaging virtual meetings, my Bible for well, engaging virtual meetings, john has truly figured out how to create meetings that build connection and excitement on your team. There is so much great information that we broke the podcast into two segments. I know you will enjoy John’s enthusiasm and his expertise on this first segment of john Chen on Team anywhere. Hello, and welcome to another episode 2021 Yeah, baby 2021. The 2021 episode, the first of many, for 21 of the team anywhere podcast. I’m your co host Mitch Simon on the west coast. Unfortunately, we do not have Jenny today on the east coast. But in the house in the team anywhere house is john Chen. Now, I’m sure you all know about john john john spent 10 years at Microsoft before founding geo teaming a tech based team building and leadership company. He’s a celebrated speaker and consultant and has delivered his message to over 230,000 participants in over 30 countries. Why are we talking to him because he recently authored the book, engaging virtual meetings. And that is my go to resource whenever I plan, an upcoming virtual meeting. Why else as I was thinking today, john Chen and I have been friends for 23 years. 23 years. So I guess we met when we were one years old. Is that right, john?
John Chen 2:22
It’s the 23rd anniversary of our 23rd birthday, Mitch.
Mitch Simon 2:25
Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. Right? We are born yet separated birth twins. That’s us. So john, hey, you know, look, you know, what people don’t know is that my life was profoundly transformed. Because I met you in 1998. On Kona, no, I Buddha point on the island of Kona. Yeah, where you were this crazy dude from Microsoft. And you had this dream that you’re going to start a company to take people on life changing adventures. And of course, my response at that time was, well, you know, john, I’m a corporate executive at Nokia, the greatest company in the world that will always be there forever. And thank you for sharing your little baby concerns with me. But I’ve got really important stuff to do, like, watch the stock price go up. And then of course, what happened was two years later, you convinced me after I, my wife had just had her third baby to go climb the most treacherous mountain in the lower 48 states, which is Mount Rainier, which is in the state of Washington, which I did not even know. And yeah, you and I, and many Tony Robbins coaches, and very few civilians, got to the top of Mount Rainier, which not many people do, we came back alive, not in a body bag. And two years later, I committed my life to leaving the corporate world and becoming and an executive coach. So because of you, john,
John Chen 3:54
limits, you know, I know you’re doing this amazing coach work. And it’s, you know, it makes me smile every time and it makes me smile that you and I are still connected. We are still doing great things together. But for those who didn’t know the story, like if you haven’t been to this place, the waikoloa is this amazing property used to be owned by the Japanese now by the Marriott. And they have these incredible sculptures called Buddha point. There’s this amazing huge beyond life sized version of Buda Buda and everyone gathers there and you know, you know, this is how good it would nature is great is when people applaud at sunset, right? Like, that was an awesome
Mitch Simon 4:31
John Chen 4:32
That’s what people do at this point. And so I’m sitting there and there’s a guy to the left to me and me, I’m just like that extroverted social person like Hey, what’s going on? And right, Mitch has given off the vibe like, you know, I’m a friendly person and we end up meeting and we have all the same books and he finds out that I’m there during a Robbins to Anthony Robbins program, and we have stayed friends ever since. And one thing that impresses me the most about Mitch, if you don’t know about Mitch is like, there are a lot of people who talk about wanting to do their dream. But there are those people that who take their their want for that dream, that passion for the dream and put the energy into it. And Mitch really showed his energy when he can. He climbed his mountain that’s closest to him. Was it such a,
Mitch Simon 5:13
it’s actually Sandburg? Well, it was saying his sinto area, which is challenging, and then it was San Gorgonio, which is just the craziest, dumbest, highest, most uncomfortable mountain to climb in Southern California.
John Chen 5:28
And he does the Thomas got highest climates, right? Not only by himself, but with a backpack and three kids.
Mitch Simon 5:34
Oh, yeah. That was sitting in Santo. So San Jacinto, I climbed with a kid on my back. I think I kid on my friend and a kid in a, in a running jogger that we that we carried up suicide point, suicide, suicide rock and Idlewild. Yeah, that’s right. And that’s when you call me Sherpa dad.
John Chen 5:53
And that’s what take that as a metaphor is like you were willing to do the hard work because all that work paid off, right? Not everybody submits in my program. I tell people that it’s about your summit wherever you go. And sometimes, you know, 1000 feet out of the start point is okay, but it’s not okay for Mitch Simon. Like me, he’s like, I just want to testing ourselves. We want to figure out how high can we go before nature or safety or something else prevents us from doing so. And that hard work paid off. Mitch stood on the summit. And one thing I love about the summit? Hopefully you tell your coaching clients, so is that nobody can take that away from you? Nobody? No,
Mitch Simon 6:29
yeah. Nobody, you earned it. You earned it. And john, you know, the the expiration since then, which is 2021 years from the summit? is, the more that you were in, I know that I know that this, this podcast is about. It’s about remote teaming and remote meetings and remote teams, which it is it is and we’ll get to that. I just want to say though, as you bring this up, john is, is that the the the thinking that you had us or you had us, you had us really remove thinking that was not useful, take on thinking that was useful. And then to to, you know, to leave work in 20, in 2002, and then to continue the work that you kicked off john, to be able to be confident to be able to you know, just like Mount Rainier, which was Okay, so, if something happens on reynier, no one can help you. Nobody. So, so go create a life for yourself, where you are really at the mercy of no one, not your boss, not your, your, you know, your friends, your spouse, whatever, that you know, yes. You want to create a valuable life, you want to be surrounded by the people that you love. Yeah. And, and to build a skill set where you know, that you can survive no matter what I mean, that, that that’s what what is the most valuable thing that they can take away from you right now?
John Chen 8:03
It’s like a radical self sufficiency. Right?
Mitch Simon 8:07
I like that. Yeah. Radical self sufficiency. That’s what we got. I mean, that’s what we got on the summit. And that’s what I’ve continued to do. And and that’s why, you know, I’ve stayed in touch with you have come out to Seattle, you’ve come out to to my house, when we could actually do this those things. But, uh, no, no, definitely, definitely. A really, you know, have been impacted. And john has impacted many, many people. So anyways, let’s get to business. Alright, so again, just a little bit. So, which is, which is funny. And what were you doing at the beginning of 2020? And what did you think 2020? was in the beginning of 2020? And where the heck did you land up,
John Chen 8:49
john? Oh, my goodness. Well, before I do that, because this relates, I want to do two things that I think are really important. What Mitch and I just did to write just talks about how important relationships are physical like when pre pandemic or even probably even more during pandemic, because how important are your relationships to what you’re doing now? I think that’s really, really key and that that this relationship between me and Mitch has really made a difference in both of our lives together. The second one that I really have is something we call is connection before content. Right. And Mitch, and I just spent some time right, reconnecting, you know, we see each other often, but not that often. And so, you’ll find actually, one of the best things for this in engaging virtual meetings, which we’re going to talk about is connection before content, right? So take some time before your virtual meeting, to log in early, connect with each other, before you get on with it, and you’ll find that you’ll find your results are better. So getting on with that. What was I doing at the beginning of 2020? Well, Mitch, I was in Atlanta, Georgia, and I was doing a building event for 250 people flying a drone in Alpharetta, Georgia. What else was I doing? I was in I was with one of our good friends start a club. We presented in Orlando at a conference with like, 1200 member when they were conferences, Mitch, there’s 1200
Mitch Simon 10:08
people don’t remember what that is,
John Chen 10:10
oh, you could touch each other, we actually went to Disney World. And we actually rode the rise of the resistance, the brand new Disneyland ride that like basically takes a backflip to get on with that. So that was my beginning of 2020. And I loved it, like, you know, when people say 2020 was gonna be my best year ever. Right? And
Mitch Simon 10:28
so, you know, for those of you don’t know, john, you know, john founded geo teaming, what john does is get many, many, many, many, many humans together, to to build their, you know, build their leadership and build their team. And the key word there is the beginning of 2020. His business, absolutely 100% relied on people getting together physically. And so when March started, one would say, then, john, guess what? It’s over. But it wasn’t over john was it?
John Chen 11:06
It was over and it wasn’t over. So yeah, just a little backwards history. In 2011, I wrote a book called 50 Digital team building games. And they it was, you know, I’ve been trying to get people online, I actually calculated Mitch, I’ve been online for 35 years, watching how people meet, remember prodigy?
Mitch Simon 11:26
I do. I do. I think I remember getting a little disc in the mail or so. After all,
John Chen 11:32
I was on prodigy and my brother and I actually got a much deeper relationship during prodigy because we were like the only two family members who are on this thing. And so he was always watching for that. How does technology change our relationships and how we connect with each other how we do things. And so anyways, uh, I’ve been trying to get people online, but everyone was like, well, that’s a great idea. But here’s some more money for your face to face thing. And I’ll see you in Orlando.
Mitch Simon 11:54
until March until March 2020.
Unknown Speaker 11:59
In a world,
Mitch Simon 12:00
the year that was so bad that they had to name it twice.
John Chen 12:05
Yeah, so I’ve 15 programs cancelled, and it was bad. And then my best year ever disappeared. And my intuition said, do the thing that you know, so nine years ago, you know, read this thing, and always trying to get people online. So I launched a class called virtual team building. And you never know, Mitch, I just love how in success. Sometimes you never know what it is that’s going to help you but in this case, a writer for a website called Library Journal. It’s the largest website for librarians. So librarians were all getting hit up saying, What resources do you have for work at home work from home? And they’re like, my book got picked up, right? Wow. Yeah. So they said, here’s a book. And by the way, she contacted me, she goes, john is actually giving away a free class for an hour. And that class blew up and went viral. I’ve taught over 4000 people in that class last year. And then my publisher caught wind of it. And they’re like, hey, john, would you like to write your second book? And I’m like, wow. Yeah, I’ll do that.
Mitch Simon 13:05
So now look, dude, everybody, his publishers Wiley. So john is the real deal. I mean, that is that is hard to get a Wiley as a publisher. And also, just let us know, when did you start? And how long did it take you to go from starting this book and getting it out there? Because I remember it being like, really fast. Oh, yeah.
John Chen 13:29
So for all of you who want to be authors out there, right, who say they don’t have enough time? Alright, I’m just gonna call bullshit on you right now. Bullshit, because, okay, my first book, I scheduled to write it in six months, and I was proud when I finished it in five, right, I negotiated six months. And I gave it to them a month early. And I’ll tell you actually, behind the scenes, Mitch, I don’t tell the story very often. But I wrote a chart, right. And I said, Here are the writing days that I have until the deadline, and after the first month, I was way off. And that was only that chart that told me, you know, you can feel yourself going I’m making progress, right? But that chart told me that that you are way off, you are never gonna make it. And so I radically changed my schedule. I became the world’s biggest introverted extrovert you’ve ever met. You stopped going out on the weekend? Yeah. And then I made my deadline. And so in this book, right, I scheduled six months this book. Two months. Wow. one third the time.
Mitch Simon 14:25
Yeah. And it’s a big I mean, it is a big hump and book. I mean, it’s great value. But it’s it’s a big book. I mean, there’s many 300 pages. Under Pedro’s book. Yeah, we got pictures. We got just just about everything in this book. It’s awesome.
John Chen 14:41
So what I can tell you about that process, too. And it wasn’t that I stopped working during that time. I mean, pandemic didn’t make it a little bit easier. That little less work. But I still ran a major conference and actually a behind the scenes stories is that it was originally called virtual team building. Oh, yeah. Because that’s what my class was called. But after I actually ran a conference from Microsoft For 200 people, and I was telling stories about this to my publisher, he just stopped. And he goes, I think we got to change the name of this book. And so we talked around it and eventually became eventual virtual meetings for the simple fact like, maybe 10, or 20% of the people listening to this are interested in high performing virtual teams. But 100% of you are interested in engaging virtual meetings now.
Mitch Simon 15:24
Great, so why don’t we go there? Why don’t you tell us? What makes the difference between a virtual meeting, which we’ve all been to, and an engaging virtual meaning, because, and and what might be the difference? JOHN, between we used to go to bad meetings, and there used to be engaging, good meetings. So again, what’s the difference between a virtual meeting and engaging virtual meeting what what gets people to be engaged? I mean, I love the way you demonstrated that we actually spent, I think, was eight minutes before we got to the question. And we could have actually gotten maybe 28 minutes. But we did spend eight minutes, you know, really reconnecting. It’s not like you and I haven’t spoken to each other in a while, we actually do keep in touch very well, fairly well. What makes it what makes the virtual meeting engaging?
John Chen 16:15
It’s a great question. Let’s just start with it. The opposite side of this, I really got a chance to meet actually, I think she’s from San Diego. She said the CEO for her own company, and she wrote this article about zoom fatigue. And like, I think everybody, if you’ve got, if you’ve ever had zoom fatigue in the last, you know, 12 months, or whenever the since you did this, just raise your hand, I know, you’re out there, I can see like, because most of the time in my class, it’s like 98 to 100% of the people, and then people don’t put their hand down. I’m like, Did you take the vaccine for zoom fatigue? Because I want to know where to get that. Right. And there’s bad meetings, you know, the bad meetings came from people who did webinars, they put up slides, and they talked for 60 minutes, right, the one that I got from one of my friends, they took a two day conference. And they ported it exactly from its in person format to the digital format with no changes. And she said, she watched it for seven hours, and then literally passed out in bed. And they’re painful. So I think the key here is that a non engaging virtual meeting is is something where it doesn’t involve you like you, if you’re gonna do that you might as well actually spend the energy and make a really great video and then send it to me. Because there’s no difference, because you’re not asking for my input, my inputs aren’t changing. So I think I actually think one of the really important things, Mitch, that engaging virtual meeting has is that the meeting is different, because you are there.
Mitch Simon 17:36
You say, What do you mean by that you
John Chen 17:38
are there, the meeting is different, because you are there. And what I mean by that is, let’s say Mitch is in the audience. And I do something like Mitch, you know, gives me the, you know, Mind blown, you know, icon, and I know that he’s doing a hand motion is going oh, my gosh, dude, you just blew my mind. I can come back. And as a speaker can react that like, Oh, thank you, Mitch, I’m so glad you told me that I blew your mind, you know, and you can feed off of that energy from the audience, because that’s what a lot of speakers are missing. They’re saying, I don’t know how to connect the audience. I don’t know how to get that audience reaction, you know, that I’m used to. And I’m saying there’s technical ways to do that. And I think that the most important thing, though, as audience members, somehow or another, that meeting is different, because you’re a present, whether it’s just your video on or that you chatted or more importantly, you asked a question that the host or the speaker responded to, so that people are getting their real information. And I think that’s the real difference. If you just want to do pre recorded stuff, then do pre recorded stuff. But don’t don’t make it a meeting, send people a video. But if you want a virtual meeting that’s engaging, then engage, meaning that as people say hello to them, connect with them, and find out how to make them some part of the meeting. And again, you’ve seen examples where sometimes I’ll go far off the end, which is I’ll put a guest in charge of my meeting for six or 10 minutes. And it’s almost impossible for them to check out because they’re currently in charge.
Mitch Simon 18:58
Right? No, that’s, that’s great. Now, what I want to know is because you know, I did get this from you. I was, I was like everybody else out there, running my meetings, my team meetings, and running them exactly. Like I ran my previous meetings, and they sucked. And then what I learned from you was is you say, involve, the the audience involved, the team members. And then so what are your think, what is your thinking when you’re creating a meeting? You know, and I’m really thinking because most of the people I think, on the call, are our most people on the on the podcasts are our team leaders or team members and not so much someone who’s speaking to a, you know, 1000s of people like that, like you do. What, what’s that thinking ahead of time as to how I might create a meeting that would actually involve people.
John Chen 19:51
So that’s the greatest part to the mix. There’s actually some intentionality in the book. That’s a big word. And what I meant by that was that
Mitch Simon 20:00
It’s a lot of syllables. Yeah.
John Chen 20:02
Yeah, well, sir, the intention behind the book is that it was written for meetings of size, you know, eight to 25. And we actually did the research that almost 90 to 98% of the meetings in the world fit that category, that conferences are really the outliers have meaning, right, right. Because these day to day meetings is where it’s really happening. And so you when I design those meetings, here are a couple core things that I have, I think one is, is I really asked people about the value of the meeting before the meeting and the meeting after the meeting. Do you know what I mean?
Mitch Simon 20:39
Now, tell us more about the value before the meeting. And after the meeting now, you know, I don’t know. Yeah.
John Chen 20:44
So the first part about when I’m designing a meeting is I’ll ask people as like, I know, it takes more of your time. But if you’re going to get online and make it virtual, then make it great, right, make it amazing. And so at Microsoft, I learned this principle called the meeting before the meaning of meeting after the meeting. And it said that I was a program manager at Microsoft, and I was trying to get stuff done. But people were like, infinitely busy at Microsoft. And some of them, it was impossible to schedule. So I invented a strategy where I showed up to meetings up to 30 minutes early. And then I would just hang by the door, I would do work on my phone or a portable laptop. But and when people started showing up, they were there and captive in some ways, because they’re waiting for the doors to open. And so I could ask them the question that I needed or get the information that I need from them before the meeting without scheduling anything. Right. And then when you
Mitch Simon 21:30
say you’re saying so like in typical Microsoft says, The door was closed, the door of the meeting was closed, but you just sat there waiting outside the meeting, nice and waited,
John Chen 21:41
because these are high value people, their schedules are busy, I respect that. And I still have to get information to get my job done. So they found the easiest way is if they finish their meeting early, and they showed up, I could get them on a one on one basis and get something done. And then it happens naturally. To me, this is not something I’m fighting or inventing, it was just something I noticed and took advantage of, which is better at Microsoft is that people stick around. So like if people get Pat, they’re all very passionate people for the most part, and then would they would stay at the meeting because they got involved in the conversation. So the meeting would end. And all these sidebar conversations would happen, right to get the other stuff done that was sparked on by the meeting. So I started scheduling 30 minutes after the meeting. And I would then meet all those other people and try and get all this other stuff done or or scheduled or saying that was a great point. Let’s follow up right now and find some time to do that. So I do this in my virtual meetings, which is I can open the doors up to 30 minutes early. And, and sometimes I’ll just tell people that too. And then I’ll say, I’ll close the door. I’ll say there’s some networking afterwards, for 30 minutes after the meeting, I’ll just keep the zoom running, you can just talk whatever about what you want. And I think that’s one of the the pieces that that’s engaging. So that’s around the sides. And then inside the meeting, I think really the key part is think about how can I engage every person in the meeting at least once? That’s one of my core principles. And so that can be as simple as people checking in with something short, like we’ve had people that are 20, a group of 20 check in and under three minutes. So those who say I don’t have enough time, I just say you’re not doing it right, right there. There are multiple other ways that you can do that and do it successfully. And then the other things around that is like, you know, a company tell us
Mitch Simon 23:19
tell us one way that what is one way to have let’s say you had a to 25 people and you know, look, I’m a I’m a very, very busy executive here, john. So how do I how do I get those people to check in individually quickly?
John Chen 23:34
One of the ways we do it is what I call an air traffic control race. And so one is we create a system called air traffic control, which is here on you know, zoom land or Corona Ville or whatever you want to call it, and no matter which virtual platform you’re on, none of them have figured it out enough to where Mitch and I can talk at the same time, and have you in the audience understand what we’re saying, right, so. So we created our traffic control, which is like either just raise your, you know, physical hand, or if you have the virtual hand, if your camera’s off, for whatever reason, you raise your virtual hand and then you as the host, just go and call through. And if two or three people go at the same time, you acknowledge them all and you establish an order. So now in turning this into a race, all I do is I take my phone, and I turn on the stopwatch, and I say, let’s see how fast that we can check in with everybody. So just tell me your name, right, your role or your location. And then like one thing you’re expecting from this meeting, or one thing that you achieve from last week’s meeting, and so people will get it like the first time you do it, it’s a little bit harder. But if you have a recurring meeting, people will find it as culture of the meeting, they’ll go faster and faster and, and so again, I’ve had teams clocking in under two minutes. Sometimes we’re very good at what also helps them to it says we can be a high performing team is kind of the subliminal message that goes along with it. And you can actually see your time decrease if you are those analytic person. You can say the first time you do this with 20 people sometimes it takes 20 minutes, and you need to know that you kind of need to go slow to go fast. Right? But If you see that, and you do it over and over, you can say we did it in two minutes. And as a team, you can say, look, we can remove 90% of our, you know, time. And we can use that time for something more valuable, something better. So that’s a very simple, easy way to do that.
Mitch Simon 25:13
I like that it’s great.
John Chen 25:17
So other elements inside to keep a meeting versus engaging to is again, you know, chat is my number two tool. Number three is one of your favorites is the breakout rooms, because it definitely changes the dynamics of talking. My favorite story, and this recent one, we’re talking, I’m working on a new class, Mitch called turn on your damn camera
Mitch Simon 25:37
through your damn camera. I like that one. Okay.
John Chen 25:40
And it’s a whole class about psychological safety. But one of our very good friends, Gil invented this thing, he had six executives who would refuse to turn on their cameras, despite multiple different techniques. And so eventually, what he did was he purposely put those six people in a breakout room for 10 minutes, and didn’t say anything. 10 minutes, they emerged, all of them had their cameras on and left their cameras on.
Unknown Speaker 26:03
That’s nice. That’s genius. It’s genius.
Mitch Simon 26:07
You people just yeah, you people. Get it, get it get over the program. Great. So turn, turn on the damn cameras now. Nice. Great. No, I do I do love. Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit? Because Because I you know, now I’m interested? What? What can you do to create or build virtual psychological safety? What can you do is I think that that’s really, that’s really the key right now, I know that I’m putting a couple of courses together. And that’s really the big one, which is, gosh, you know, especially in the air of conflict, we’ve actually had someone talk about this on the podcast is, you know, you if you and I, john have problems having conflict, then we’re definitely going to have problems in a virtual world.
John Chen 26:50
Oh, yeah. Just magnifier. So we’ll go back to psychological safety, for those who don’t know, is a big, big fancy word is that Google did this incredible amount of team research, that’s when I first discovered it. And it’s probably the best research in terms of teams in the last two or three years. And you can find it in just Google, Google Aristotle. And that was the project name. They studied teams for 18 months. And it’s like, you know, what’s the best indicator of a high performing team? And was it you know, the computers that gave them the setting? You know, the the composition of the team, the leader? Nope, it’s none of those. Right? The number one factor, there’s five factors, but the number one factor was psychological safety to find as that you feel safe taking a risk in front of your teammates.
Mitch Simon 27:33
Right? And a great way to summarize it right there. Yeah.
John Chen 27:36
There you go. There’s my there’s my pocket version, whatever. So. So how does this apply to virtual meetings is that I really discovered this. And in the behind the scenes too much, it was an appendix in my book, it was actually towards the end. And the more and more that we looked at it and saw what happened over pandemic, we moved into chapter number three. Wow. Right, right behind the basics. And so it’s on psychological safety. And it says, This is the invisible thing that I’m building in this box in this video box that you might not see in a podcast, but on when you see me on video that I’ve been building ever since you met me. And it’s creating psychological safety and and so you feel safe taking a risk in interacting with me, which is contributing, chatting, saying Hello, we’re asking a question. And, and I just think it’s so important. So simple ways to do it is number one is just be inviting. So like if you combine this thing about logging in early, as soon as you log in, as soon as your audio hits me, I will come in and say something like Hi, Mitch, right? And all of a sudden he you know, you acknowledge going, Oh, great, I didn’t just slip into this meeting. And my presence doesn’t matter. It’s like, Oh, they already recognize me. Right? We have other people in large meetings, who are chatting to other people, right? So they’re assigned some part of the alphabet or some other indicator. And their job is to make sure that they’re greeting people on the inside and then answering any questions. And then, one of the most interesting techniques I’ve had is like, when I ask questions, in terms of psychological safety, I almost never call on anyone. And what I what I do is, that’s almost the only time I allow for this quote, unquote, awkward silence on zoom. Because I want people to think about the question, and I want people to give the time and space to actually answer it. And I do truly in my heart believe that. If people figure out that they answer they are allowed to answer when they want to answer and that they are safe with no, no matter what answer they give, they will contribute more. And so those are some of the things that I practice and tips that I give.
Mitch Simon 29:37
Yeah, it’s great. I love the name of the chapter. I’m just opening it up but just you know, confirming the chapter three is about psychological safety. And and it is, and it’s Yeah, and you do actually have the you open up with the Google research. I love the way you do it because you just do it as a picture as opposed to having to read the whole article. Although the article is incredible, but you call you know, psychological safety, how to get the quiet attendees and in Everyone else to engage. And that I think is the magic magic bullet. of being able to to build trust is getting everyone to feel comfortable to engage
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