Transcript How to Find Opportunities for Growth in This Pandemic

Excuse the typos, this episode was transcribed by our friends at

Mitch Simon 0:10
Welcome to another episode of team anywhere where CEOs, leaders and experts at building teams, companies, organizations, and amazing cultures

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 0:22
share how to lead from anywhere in the world. I’m your co host on the east coast. juden Bianca Mathis, and

Mitch Simon 0:28
I’m your co host on the West Coast, Mitch Simon. And we invite you to join us team anywhere.

Today on Team anywhere we interview Dr. Tracy Brower, a PhD sociologist and principal with Steel Cases Applied Research and Consulting Group, Tracy studies the sociology of work and the changing nature of work workers and workplace. She is the author of Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work, and a contributor to and Fast Company. On the podcast Tracy talks about creating social capital, creating the perception of proximity, being intentional about the kinds of work experiences we create for people, and how holding each other accountable, really shows others that their contributions matter.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 1:27
Welcome, everyone, to another episode of team anywhere. And this is Ginny Bianca Mathis from the East Coast with my partner, Mitch Simon on the west coast. And we are excited today to have Tracy Brower with us a work environment sociologist, who is going to share with us some incredible insights on this woman writes like no one I’ve ever seen before. And yes, she caught our attention. And we definitely want to ask some questions, since she’s been studying some of the same phenomenon that we have. So welcome, Tracy.

Tracy Brower 2:13
Thank you for having me. I

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 2:15
appreciate it. Excellent. So let’s just start by you telling us a little bit about your journey in terms of how you got to where you’re doing what you’re doing now. Sounds good. Yeah.

Tracy Brower 2:28
You know, I study work and workers and workplace. And I am just fascinated by what a big proportion of our life work is and how important it is, and how work is really part of a full life. So that’s what I study, and that’s my enjoy. And I get to write on the side for d Fast Company, as you mentioned, it’s kind of like I say, it’s my catharsis or my like, weekend therapy, other people garden. And I write.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 2:57
Yes! yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I do a little bit about that myself. Excellent. Well, talking about writing you did write a wonderful book, Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work. Tell us a little bit about that book and and why we should read it and what you were trying to teach all of us. Yeah, you know,

Tracy Brower 3:20
I went back to school, and our kids were young. Dylan was in kindergarten. And our daughter, Alex was, I think, in third grade. And our son said to his class, yeah, my mom went back to school one more time to try to get it right this time, which I thought was horrible. But anyway, I studied work/life. And I found that, you know, it was really about, it was always about balance and trade offs. And this idea that you couldn’t have it all. And so I wanted to research and write, how could you have it all? How could you be fulfilled? How could you maybe not have it all at once, but have it all over time? So the book is about alternative ways to think about work life balance? What are the ways that we navigate? What are the ways that we reconcile both? What are the ways that we find kind of that opportunity within work to be fulfilled, and then also set the right boundaries for us? Because everybody has different right answers. So it’s a little bit about that?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 4:23
Yes, wonderful. And it seems to be a topic that doesn’t go away, even before the pandemic. And now we enter a whole new world with the pandemic and we seem to be morphing into some kind of hybrid. I’ll get your opinion on that. So share with us a little bit given this emphasis of the whole person. What are your views on where we seem to be going we have this remote work we have people on at corporate and some saying they want one or the other? Where do you come down on you? You know,

Tracy Brower 5:00
I think this is it’s such an interesting topic, right? Because I think we used to think that it was this new subject. But as a matter of fact, we’ve been studying it as a nation since the 70s. And most people say they experience some spillover from work to life and from life to work. And I think that what has happened with the pandemic is, it’s kind of a good news, bad news story. On the one hand, we have gotten to this new level of empathy about work life, because all the people who didn’t necessarily have to do the same juggling act are all having to do it now. And I And so that gives us a sense of empathy. I think the other really interesting thing these days, is that we used to be in the work life literature and research, it was always about how do you keep work at bay? How do you set the boundary? How do you keep work away?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 5:51

Tracy Brower 5:52
And now it’s 180 degrees different people are saying, Oh, my gosh, I love my family. I’m spending a lot of time with my family. Right? Like, how do I get a little separation? How in so it’s this really interesting shift? In this really interesting discussion about boundaries and some new ways? How do I have the right boundaries? And you might like more separation between work and life, I might like less, you got to do what works for you.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 6:18
Totally, totally. And so I’ve seen you’ve written a few articles around, you know, we need to be careful. There are important things that happened when we can see people. So what are the tips that you have for these leaders and people themselves? All right, I’m in remote. And actually, I think I’m going to be one of the ones that votes to stay here. What do I need to watch out for?

Tracy Brower 6:53
I love that question. You know, I think the thing about remote work is there’s no one size fits all, there’s no one right answer. And in all of the research that we’ve been doing, we’ve been finding that people are really having varied experiences. And it can be completely exhausting, because you’re looking at the screen all day. And you’ve got this new level of vigilance, because you’ve got to pay attention to what you look on camera and what everybody else looks like on camera. And if you’re paying attention and multitasking and all that it’s super intense, and it can be exhausting. But it can also be lovely and fulfilling, because you can wear your fuzzy slippers and have your dog by your feet. And your commute is from you know, the kitchen island to the dining room table, for example. Um, and and I think the thing that we have to be aware of is that there’s always this trade off, like, being face to face is really good for us. It tends to support our health and well being physically, emotionally, cognitively, our connections with other people are utterly rooted to our mental health. In fact, there have been some really interesting studies that have looked at increased mental health concerns going right along with more work from home, people are feeling more socially isolated, more stressed, more anxious. And so face to face offers really wonderful benefits around being connected, feeling connected, feeling a sense of purpose, being able to be more innovative and energized and having a common sense of purpose. You can get a lot of that at home. And thank goodness for technology, what would we do without it, but it’s gonna, I think end up being a bit of a both and. Because we still need each other, our fundamental part of our human humanity is to come together in groups, to find strength in groups, and to be part of a tribe and part of part of a herd together,

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 8:46
what are the kinds of things you can do with the team that is out there to create more of a social bond? And then what kinds of things when we do get together? Are they the same? Are they like the old days? You know what?

Tracy Brower 9:03
Yeah, you know, this is such a good question. Because I love your language of the social bond. That is what we need to create for people. There’s a wonderful sociological truth that says that proximity is the most important determinant of relationship. And that proximity can be either real or perceived. And so I think part of it is like creating the perception of proximity. And a really big part of that is creating connections that are not just socially oriented, socialist good, but they’re also task oriented. And so I think it’s partly if we’re talking about creating those bonds across remote distances. We are putting people together to work on tasks together. We are ensuring that people have regular connections. I just wrote an article about meetings like meetings. I have really bad rap. Yeah, we’ve all been in a million bad meetings. But meetings also can be especially helpful now, because they help us see contacts, they help us get clarity, we get more communication and we can connect with people. So I think part of this remote connection has to do with creating proximity that we perceive because we’re working together substantively with people because we’ve seen each other regularly on our video conferences. And I think purpose is a really big part of this as well. Right? Like, we don’t just want to lay bricks, we want to build cathedrals. And it’s harder to see that and feel that you mentioned the energy that we get face to face. It’s harder to see that and get that when we’re sitting alone in our, you know, in our spare bedroom. And so when leaders and team members can help provide that sense of purpose, what’s the big picture? How does my work Connect? How does my work matter? Right? How does my work feed the value chain? The person who’s serving the person who’s serving the final customer.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 10:59
and point that out? zactly? Like, don’t have any assumption? Oh, well, you know, that goes to Joe. And then Joe does this. No, I know. Exactly.

Tracy Brower 11:09
Exactly. Exactly. And I think it’s just that real. Like, if there’s a double edged sword to this whole deal of living through the pandemic, it’s that I think one of the benefits is that we become more conscious of our work, more conscious of our workplace and what we’re missing, more conscious of how our work intersects with other it’s like, we’re just thinking about it, because we appreciate it through its absence. All right,

Unknown Speaker 11:34

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 11:37
yes, an end. And I’ve heard the word word. And I know you’ll have to our managers and leaders and all of us out here, we’re becoming more mindful, saying all right now I do want them to feel more connected during this next hour. How do I do that? Whereas before? I never gave that a second?

Tracy Brower 11:59
Yeah, exactly. I think we’re more mindful. I think we’re really thinking hard about all that we’re struggling with. And that may actually be good for learning, right? Like, the most important innovations don’t come along, when you’re doing things like you always did them. Right. Like the most important innovations come from the greatest barriers, when you just can’t do things the same thing, same way anymore. you’re forced to think really, really differently. And you have asked about, you know, how do we help people form bonds when we’re in the office, because I think this interesting thing, hybrid is the word you used, which is absolutely the word because we’re kind of between both we’ve been back, we got sent back home, depending on the virus in our location, we’re going to go back eventually, we might have more work from home in the long term. I think that there’s an opportunity to be really intentional about the kinds of work experiences that we create for people like where are the places where we will design for people to come together, where are the places where people will get to collaborate really intentionally, where are the places that we can be intentional about people socializing or learning together. And I love to talk about the concept of social capital, social capital is that is that bank account, and you make deposits, yes, build relationships. And we’ve all been making lots of withdrawals during the pandemic. And we need to get back together so we can make those deposits, again, in social capital is really helpful, because it gives me the opportunity to hear new ideas to stretch and grow in my career, I give advice, which helps me do things more efficiently and more effectively. And that’s super fulfilling for me as an individual. But it’s also really good for the company, because now the company gets people who are loving what they do. And they’re more efficient, they’re more effective, they get coaching, they get advice, they can get things done through their network. So this idea of helping people build social capital, both remote and when they’re back in the office, I think is a really big part of that. I’m going to steal it social social capital, build it up,

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 14:08
put it into your account. And you can even even see we’re going to have a get together next month. And it’s going to be over in this new pod environment. And, and the whole point is to build your social cap. You guys, before we have another one.

Tracy Brower 14:26
Good thinking, I love that that’s a really big part of it, too, isn’t it? It’s that adaptability like what are we learning about business continuity? What are we learning about our own sense of resilience? Because, heaven forbid, we have another pandemic or some other thing that interrupts business continuity and interrupts our good lives were the leading and and, you know, throws us off balance and disrupts but what are the ways that we become more resilient through this experience that help us in the next one or the next one? Now,

Mitch Simon 14:57
I have a question Tracy about energy. And I’m wondering if you really point to it that that energy is so important right now, especially because we’re all experiencing this so differently. What are some of the things that great teams are doing to to raise energy levels and to connect that energy with each other while they’re dispersed? And for many of us have no idea when we’re going back to being together physically? Yeah, I

Tracy Brower 15:24
think energies is a critical point. And I think one of the things that teams do really well is to be conscious and explicit about the discussions about energy. Like, one of the great things, one of the hallmarks of a really effective culture is when we talk about our norms or assumptions or behaviors, when we’re explicit about those we, it’s like an iceberg. And we take those norms and assumptions and values from under the water level, and we bring them above water level. So I think one thing we can do is really talk to each other about it, how important it is how we’re feeling. I’ve said, you know, this chitchat that happens at the beginning of a meeting? I feel like it’s even more important now than it used to be like, where are you at? How are you doing, you know, what’s going on with you? Right? Because we’re all in really different places. I think that’s one, I think another thing that teams can do is really recognize the differences between team members, you know, like, like, I’ve had some, I’ve had some people say to me, Oh, my gosh, this is the worst thing that’s ever happened to me, I’m going crazy. I’m gonna like, you know, I’m losing it, I’m losing sanity. And other people are saying, you know, this isn’t really so hard. I’m really kind of not troubled by this so much at all. And so I think that there are just different needs, like we all have a need for something together, and we all have a need for alone. And that is a matter of proportion. So I think really effective teams. to your question, Mitch, are the ones who understand that people might be in different places in terms of their overall preferences. And then we also, I think, need to just be especially empathetic and compassionate toward each other as teams, because there will be abs and flows. And I’m going to have up days and down days, and you are too. So I think that’s part of it. And I think the other The last thing I would say about teams is really thinking about holding each other accountable. You know, like, like, I always say the right answer isn’t to just kind of let people go like I get, it’s really hard for you just, you know, go with yourself, don’t check in, don’t worry about us just do what you need to do. That’s a really supportive message. But it doesn’t help me to feel like my contribution matters significantly. Like I want my team to hold me accountable. I want my team to want my work, I want my work to matter enough that my team is saying, hey, Tracy, we’re really glad that you brought that up, or we missed you at the meeting, we need this from you, that can be really empowering. So that’s the other thing I would say is kind of this balance between empathy, compassion, and also that accountability, which demonstrates the need for the contributions.

Mitch Simon 17:58
Also, I also hear you say, with a need for contribution is his recognition. Because I know that for me, Tracy, the teams that I’m working on right now, when when someone says like, wow, that was just really great. I’m noticing how that’s a huge connection point for me with with the team members, and I’m on do, would you say more about the types of recognition that you’re seeing out there that are that are most impactful?

Tracy Brower 18:21
Yeah, totally. You know, I just wrote an article about the difference between if you’re feeling really under pressure, because you’ve got so much to do, or a toxic work environment. And I think one of the things that happens, when you’re under a lot of pressure, and in a healthy environment, you’re getting that recognition, you’re getting the recognition that’s right for you, like you might love you know, neon lights and confetti dropping on your head. And I want to just to have a quiet, quiet email from somebody I value telling me that I did a good job. So there’s that kind of like recognition is in the eye of the beholder as well. And I think that there’s that really important part of it’s the small ways that we recognize people the same not just saying thank you or saying, hey, great job. But it’s also the way that we listen, the way that we’re willing to take in their ideas, the way that they feel like they’re respected the way that they feel their voice is heard, even if you don’t win every point in a meeting. It’s not about winning and losing the point anyway, it’s about everybody got to be heard. And the last thing I would say about recognition is that recognition and accountability are two sides of the same coin. Like there are leaders who are like great job rah rah, you know, cheerleading, but they really don’t know what people are doing in a meaningful way. And so recognition needs to be based on leaders who have enough literacy about what their people are doing, that they give real recognition, like, wow, I know you really struggled with that, or, wow, I know that, you know, you burn some mineral oil on that one or Wow, your work is up to its usual passing standards in this way. And this way, that specificity means a lot to people as well.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 20:03
Right? And I just, you know, I take these off as you’re saying them, and I think about the leaders out there, we’ve been telling them this stuff for forever. And what’s going to make, you know, that flipped the switch difference? Oh, now I really have to do it. And I think that goes back to what you said it’s, the everydayness is gone. And now we appreciate Oh my god, all these faces are staring at me right now. How am I going to energize them? What am I going to say? And that would have been great, you know, if we could have done a study, you know, these 20 over here and these 20 over there, and what how they morphed over the last three months, that a lot of learning and growing. Oh, I

Tracy Brower 20:53
agree. I love your I love your point, the everydayness has gone, I’m going to steal that that’s a quotable quote, I think we’re in this really interesting time where I like to think about like the water level, the water level in the stream, or the water level on the lake is going down, and you can see all the rocks as the water level goes down. And there’s just no room for mediocrity in leadership anymore. So like, you know, when the economy’s good, and you know, there’s no pandemic and you can kind of keep going like you’ve been

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 21:21
There’s no where to hide!

Tracy Brower 21:22
right, exactly. Now, there’s nowhere to hide. There’s no room for mediocrity and leadership. And so I think the other thing that happens is, there’s this wonderful sociological concept about mirroring that one of the primary ways that human beings learn is by watching other people. And so what’s happening is that leaders who are doing a great job, managing by objectives, managing by outcomes, which is what they should have been doing all along, are, are really rising to the fore, and they’re getting recognition. And we’re seeing them talk to the companies and talk to their teams. In through that they’re starting to model for others. And like you said, There’s nowhere to hide. If you’re betwixt in between as a leader and maybe weren’t doing such a great job to begin with. Now’s your opportunity to get a whole lot better at holding people accountable, recognizing people, energizing people creating a sense of purpose, giving people information and being transparent without artificially making promises, or over promising in times of uncertainty.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 22:26

Tracy Brower 22:27
Right. All those things are huge opportunities for leaders today.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 22:30
You wrote an article also on trust, and remote. What can you share about that? What techniques can keep that going? Yeah, I

Tracy Brower 22:40
think I think trust is in the balance to a great extent. Because one of the things that builds trust is a great sense of openness. I love the mantra, people don’t trust what they don’t understand. And so when we see each other a lot, we tend to build familiarity and familiarity breeds acceptance, I have more details about you think about like a pool of data, a pool of experience a pool of information. And I’m going to climb a ladder of influence inference that comes out of that pool of data, right? Like you were late for a call, I don’t know anything about you. And I just decided you were just slacking or oversleeping or something. If I knew more about you, I could conclude Wow, you were dealing with this or this or this and or you were, you know, running around looking for a conference room or whatever you were doing. I have a level of trust and familiarity with you that causes me to form different inferences and draw different conclusions about your motives based on your behaviors. Yes. And so I think that we’re in this really important moment, where if we can’t see as much figuratively and literally, we don’t have as big a pool of data or experience about each other. And so we climb that ladder of inference to really different conclusions. Whereas if we have more familiarity, and openness and transparency, that helps us to draw more accurate conclusions and builds trust. So trust is this wonderful, reinforcing loop of I share something and you share something and then I’m transparent about something and then you’re transparent, right? And that tends to have a positive effect on us. And so I think that’s part of trust. I think the other thing about trust is being really easy to read. Like one of the challenges with virtual communication is we can’t see nonverbals as well, we can still see them, but not in the same micro expressions that we get face to face. So I think we want to be as explicit as possible as easy to read as possible, maybe even giving more context or more detail. Tails in the written word of email or verbal?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 25:03
Exactly. It helped me to say, you know, I’m cranky today. Did you got it? You got it

Tracy Brower 25:09
exactly. And I think we’re assuming goodwill, we’re assuming you’re starting with a set of an assumption of goodwill. And that shifts the way we behave toward others. And then you’re back into that virtuous loop.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 25:20
So that’s a whole set of learning behaviors around. How can I build trust with you? Yes, let’s talk about the guitar in the background. So that’s, you would never know that about me, except now we’re on zoom. So we just have to pivot a bit, you know, perhaps to, to get to these real human things that you are pointing out?

Tracy Brower 25:43
Yes. And you know, what I think is kind of exciting is I think we have this new opportunity for bands like, like, we’ve got this new level of intimacy, right? Like, I’ve invited you into my home. And not only can you see my guitar, but I don’t know, maybe my cat walked in front of the screen, or you heard my dog barking, or you saw my children. Or you saw me in my baseball hat after I came in from my run. I think that kind of thing is so bonding for people, because it gives you this like new level of intimacy, appropriate intimacy. So I think our opportunity when we get back, the other thing, sociologically speaking, is that one of the things that Bond’s us significantly is going to really, really hard times together. And this is the definition of that, right? Like, we’re gonna get back to the office and be like, Oh, my gosh, we made it, we’re here we’ve come through together, we’re already starting to see some of those bonds. But I think there’s a huge opportunity for us to really play on that expand that really extend that into positive relationships. I’m sorry, Mitch, we’re gonna say something too.

Mitch Simon 26:48
I was gonna say exactly what you said, Tracy. Because Because I really do see that everything you’ve spoken about, it’s kind of like the this, okay, the pandemic happened. And all of these opportunities for learning about each other, they fell into our lap. For instance, you know, as we’re recording this, in one of the pockets, we just met Tracy Tracy’s recording this in her in her house gym. Right. We were, we were recording it before, I guess, one level above the stairs. And so now I know much about Tracy, that I wouldn’t have known about or had I said, Hey, come to our studio and do a recording. My question then is if we can actually go wow, we’re all going through this together. So we’ve all suffered together. So now we’ve got this this bond. But the question is, for those of us who are going to who are who have read all of Tracy Brower’s articles, which I don’t think any any human could could do, because would take you for the rest of your life. And, and who’s really, really, really dug deep into this podcast, it’s okay, so, so what we seen is, perhaps productivity has gone up because of this greater level of transparency and greater level of vulnerability. So my question to you, Tracy is okay, so where would we go from here? Because, okay, I know you have a cat, I know you have a baseball cap, I know that you you run? Are we going to just kind of, you know, get to our 42% level of higher of productivity? Or is there a place to go? Whether we go back to work once a day, or 12 times a day? Where can we take this shared experience right now, where could a manager take you know, everything, you’ve talked about purpose and perception and productivity, and dig deeper to to create those bonds and those higher levels of trust right now?

Tracy Brower 28:43

I think this is such a moment to build our resilience. Like, I just love the idea that the mind isn’t elastic, it’s plastic. If the mind were elastic, we would stretch and go back right to where we were before, but it’s plastic, we stretch and we’re struggling, and we’re challenged. And now we’re in a new place to reach for that next thing. So if resilience is about understanding reality, number one, making sense of reality number two, and then improvising and problem solving. Number three, I think we’re at this moment where where we go from here is about building our resilience, building our adaptability. And I think there’s this moment for hope. And I think there’s a moment to figure out how we can be in this constant learning mode, this constant learning perspective. You know, it was interesting this morning, my husband and I were watching the news. And, you know, there was a vaccine that was announced in the stock market love bad and the stock market got really happy. And he said, it’s amazing what a little hope will do. Isn’t that just lovely? Right. And I think that’s where we go from here. And I think that we also, if we’re in a learning mindset if we’re in a learning mode, I think we are constantly looking for the thing that doesn’t already match our current experience. Like we’re kind of limited, because algorithms are too smart, they know what we’re already interested in, and they send us stuff in our feed that we already are interested in. We’re smart enough to go sign up for notifications that match what we already believe in. And I think there’s an opportunity, this was so disruptive, what if we could continue to disrupt our thinking and look for the thing that’s different look for the thing that disagrees with our current mindset, look for the opportunity to think differently, or have somebody pushed back on us, or really look for different ways of understanding. Because we’ve all had such a different experience through this, there’s so much to learn, not just the on the other side of this particular thing, but on the other side of where we go from here. So I think we have this opportunity to come to a new frame in terms of how we learn how we use hope, as an accelerant, how we use this terrible challenge we’ve been through as an accelerant for where we might go, you know, tomorrow and the next day and the next day.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 31:12
That’s wonderful. So that comes to a question we ask all of our guests, and that is what has this been like for you? You’ve been on this journey. What kind of thoughts? What have you gotten scared about you and your own career and how you’re going about things? What? No,

Tracy Brower 31:34
this is super scary. I’d like to say if you haven’t had some moments of stress and anxiety, you’re just not paying attention. Make your living under a rock. And I’d like to know your address. Because I just like it’s been really, really tough. And you know, there I think I’ve been probably on the same journey as others kind of on an abin flow. And sometimes you feel like, Okay, I’m good. I’m pushing through, I’m muscling through. And other times, you’re like, Oh my gosh, I’m so done with this, I am so done with this. And we had when the pandemic started, we had a daughter graduating from college and a son graduating from high school, and they got just really messed up, like their experience got so messed up. But that’s tiny, in comparison to the way that this has messed up and disrupted so many other lives in bigger ways. And so one of the things that I’ve been really reflecting on is my response. And, and as a parent, I want to be validating and I’m frustrated. I’m sad, and I’m grieving for my children. But I need to balance that with a sense of optimism and future and moving forward for them. Because otherwise we can all kind of wallow together in the swamp of despair. Yes. Oh, my goodness, sometimes it’s good to just spend a little bit of time there. And then to get back out. So I think there’s this really interesting balance of like, how we give ourselves and each other space to wallow, and validate our experience and how we give ourselves and others kind of a sense of optimism, a sense that we’re going to get through the sense of resilience. And and that’s my learning right now that I’m working on is like, how do I find that right balance? Because it feels like it’s different all the time?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 33:20
Yes. And you’ve repeated resilience many times. And so I think that is definitely a wonderful key message. Mitch, any final words, or?

Mitch Simon 33:35
Yeah, I, I just I’ve learned I’ve learned so much from this podcast. And I, I guess my final question would be what, what conversations would you be urging team leaders and team members to be having right now, as we, you know, as we’re, you know, facing the holidays, and then going into 2021. So it’s, you know, for all of us, it will be okay, we’re here we are with another year, we’re in this thing. And I could see a lot of people going here we are within this thing. Let’s wallow. And and I would love to know what what conversations would you be looking at for people to really deliver hope, even knowing that we might be in this for another six months or a year?

Tracy Brower 34:23
Yeah, yeah. You know,

I think it’s all about taking time to learn and reflect. I think we don’t always do that. Well, as society, you know, you think about the plan, do check act model, right? We’re busy doing an acting and doing an acting, we miss the circle, and we just do the linear back and forth. And I think we have this moment to learn and reflect. And I think our opportunity is to is to really consider accelerating, like how do we use this as a positive trigger? Where do we go from here? What are the things that we wanted to do anyway, and now we’re so much more. I don’t know, we can We’ve lived through this challenge. So how might we go forward in a brand new way? How might we use this to accelerate the way we think about things in a new way, the way that we think about ourselves in a new way? Mitch, I loved your comment about, you know, we’ve had this opportunity to learn about relationships dropped in our lap. Yes. How do we use that as an accelerant and go to just new places in terms of our business, our business model, serving our customers serving each other, making our own unique contributions and supporting each other through the process?

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 35:31
We’re almost free. Right? Like a different kind of freedom.

Tracy Brower 35:38
Yeah, exactly. And it’s such a balance, like we don’t want to be Pollyanna. This is really hard stuff. It’s really hard stuff. But by goodness, we’re going to get through it. We are going to get through it and and we’re gonna, we’re gonna, you know, it’s like Robert Fulghum years and years and years ago, wrote a book called all I ever needed to

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 35:57
know I learned in kindergarten, yes,

Tracy Brower 35:59
right, if it’s my age, but one of the things he said was, you know, we just need to, we need to hold hands and stick together. Right, which I think is really smart. And, you know, take a nap on the weekend.

Ginny Bianco-Mathis 36:14
Yeah, sorry. That’s good advice. Don’t Oh, thank you so much, Tracy. This has been enlightening and fun. And thanks for sharing with us. And let us all go forward with a lot of resilience and a lot of hope. Thanks, Tracy.

Tracy Brower 36:32
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Mitch Simon 36:34
Thank you, Tracy. And thanks to all of our listeners for another exciting episode of team anywhere

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